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AN INTERVIEW

Books by Daniel W. Church

The Records of a Journey . . $1.00
The Enigma of Life. 2 vols. . . 2.00
An Interview 1.00

For sale at the bookstores, or sent postpaid by
the Publishers

AN INTERVIEW

BY
DANIEL W. CHURCH

CHICAGO
THE BERLIN CAREY COMPANY

Copyright, 1910
By D. W. Church

Entered at Stationers' Hall, London
All rights reserved

PREFATORY

HPHE author feels that this little book
should not be published without a
few words as to the purpose of it.

There are perhaps few persons that
have not consciousness that we are liv-
ing in a very unusual time, as there are
perhaps few persons that understand
why it is so.

Some of us feel that we are approach-
ing a great change, or that we are pass-
ing through a great change. Some of
us, that there is something wrong —
that we are contending with some diffi-
culty or other.

And of these, some feel that the diffi-
culty that we are contending with is a

vi PREFATORY

difficulty of our minds; and some that
it is a difficulty of our affairs ; and some
that it is a difficulty of both.

The purpose of this little book, and
of what the author has to say following
it, is to clear this matter up, that we may
understand the condition that we are
in, and what it is leading us to.

That the method that the author takes
to do this is unusual, is because the con-
dition that we are in is unusual.

AN INTERVIEW

A HUNDRED years ago an event oc-
"^^ curred in a little floorless cabin in
the State of Kentucky that we have not
yet seen the full result of, nor will we
see the full result of it for many years
to come.

Just the number of persons present
we do not know, but certain it is that
there was a neighboring housewife or
two, and Nancy Hanks-Lincoln, and
perhaps her little two-year-old daughter
Sarah — and no more. For there was
no physician, and Thomas Lincoln was
away, and did not return until the event
was over.

To all others, so far as we know, what
occurred remained unknown until the
l

2 AN INTERVIEW

next morning, when Thomas Lincoln
carried the news of it to the Sparrow
family, some two miles away, where he
announced it in this simple manner:
"Nancy's got a baby boy." — Nancy
being the niece of Mrs. Sparrow.

And all unconscious of the impor-
tance of what she was about to do, the
good woman of the house hastily cleared
up the breakfast-table, and went over
the same way that the father had come
to where the young child was.

And Dennis Hanks, a ten-year-old
cousin of the new baby, who lived with
the Sparrows, and ran ahead and got
there first, tells us that "she washed him,
an' put a yaller flannen petticoat on
him, an' cooked some dried berries with
wild honey fur Nancy, an' slicked things
up a bit an' went home. And that," he
says, "is all the muss'n either of them
got."

And so far as we know, it was through

AN INTERVIEW 3

the Sparrows and Cousin Dennis that
the news was spread that a child had
been born that night in the little cabin
in the bleak Kentucky hills, and that he
was called Abraham, after his grand-
father Lincoln, who was killed by the
Indians while working in his fields many
years before.

Certain it is that Cousin Dennis took
no pains to keep the matter a secret, for
he tells us that "babies were n't as thick
as blackberries in the woods o' Ken-
tucky," and that he "was well-nigh
tickled to death" at the coming of this
one.

"I rolled up," he says, "in a b'ar-
skin that night, an' slep' by the fire-
place, so I could see the little feller when
he waked up. An' Tom had to get up
and tend him. Nancy let me hold him
purty soon."

And when asked if Abe was a good-
looking baby, he said:

4 AN" INTERVIEW

"Well now, he looked jist like any
other baby at fust — like red cherry-
pulp squeezed dry. Abe never was
much fur looks. I recollect how Tom
joked about his long legs when he was
toddlin' 'round the cabin."

"But," he says, "looks didn't count
much them days, no how. It was
stren'th, an' work, an' daredevil."

And this child was a child of destiny,
and grew and waxed strong.

"He was right out in the woods,"
Dennis says, "'bout as soon 's he was
weaned, fishin' in the crick, settin' traps
fur rabbits, an' muskrats, goin' on coon-
hunts with Tom an' me an' the dogs, an'
drapin' corn fur his pappy."

And when asked if they were poor, he
said:

"Pore ? We were all pore them days,
but the Lincolns was porer than any-
body. Choppin' trees, an' grubbin' roots,
an' splitting rails did n't leave Tom no

AN INTERVIEW 5

time to put a puncheon-floor in his cabin.
It was all he could do to get his fambly
enough to eat an' kiver 'em. Nancy was
terrible ashamed o' the way they lived,
but she knowed Tom was doin' his best,
an' she was n't the pesterin' kind.

"She was as purty as a pictur' an' as
smart as you'd find 'em anywhar. She
could read and write. The Hankses
was some smarter 'n the Lincolns. Tom
thought a heap o' Nancy, an' was as
good to her as he knowed how to be.
He did n't drink or swear, or play cards,
or fight none, an' them was drinkin' an'
cussin' an' quarrelsome days.

"When Nancy married Tom he was
workin' in a carpenter-shop. It was n't
Tom's fault, but he could n't make a
livin' by his trade. So he took up some
land. It was mighty ornery land, but
it was the best he could get, when he
did n't have much to trade fur it."

But no matter how, or by whom, the

6 AN INTERVIEW

tidings of the birth of this child was
spread in that poor neighborhood, for it
is not his becoming known there that is
important to us, but his becoming known
elsewhere, and in a far different way
from what he became known there, and
in a far different way from what he be-
came known in the poor neighborhood
in Indiana to which his parents soon
moved, of which we get some intimate
glimpses from his interested cousin Den-
nis, who accompanied them.

"Tom," he says, "got hold o' a bet-
ter farm after 'while ; but he could n't get
a clear title to it, so when Abe was about
eight years old, an' I was about eighteen,
we all lit out fur Indiany.

"Nancy emptied the shucks out o'
the tow-linen ticks, an' they piled every-
thing they had wuth takin' on the backs
o' two pack-hosses" (which were bor-
rowed) .

"Tom could make pole-beds an' pun-

AN INTERVIEW 7

cheon-tables an' stools easier 'n he could
carry 'em. Abe toted a gun, an' kep' it
so dry on the raft crossin' the Ohio that
he shot a turkey with it the fust day we
got to Indiany. An' he was so proud of
it that he could n't stop talkin' about
it till Tom hollered to him to quit.

"Tom brought his tools, and traded
fur some land with Mr. Gentry. It was
in Spencer County, back a piece from
the Ohio River. We had to chop down
trees to make a road to it. But it was
good land, in the timber whar the women
could pick up their firewood, an' on a
crick with a deer-lick handy, an' a good
spring o' water.

"We all lived in pole-sheds fur a
year. Don't know what pole-sheds is?
Well, they 're jist shacks o' poles roofed
over, but left open on one side — no
floor, no fireplace. I don't see how the
women folks lived through it.

"'Bout the time we got our cabins

8 AN INTERVIEW

up the Sparrows both died o' milk-
sickness, an' I went to Tom's to live.
Then Nancy died o' the same disease.
The cows et pizen weeds, I reckon. O
Lord, O Lord, I '11 never furget it, the
misery in that cabin in the woods when
Nancy died.

"Abe an' me helped Tom make the
coffin. He tuk a log left over frum
makin' the cabin, an' I helped him
whipsaw it into planks an' plane 'em.
Me 'n Abe held the planks while Tom
bored the holes an' put them together
with pegs Abe'd whittled."

Just to think of it ! Little Abe whit-
tling pegs to hold his mother's coffin
together ! What could be more pathetic
and heart-breaking than that ?

"I reckon," Dennis says, "it was
thinkin' o' Nancy that started Abe to
studyin' that winter. He could read an'
write, Nancy an' me 'd taught him that.
An' he had gone to school a spell, but it

AN INTERVIEW 9

was nine mile thar an' back, an' a poor
make-out fur a school anyway. Tom
said it was a waste o' time fur him to go,
an' I reckon he was right."

Yes; it was thinking of his mother
that started Abe to studying that winter,
for this child had been selected to ren-
der us a great service, and given a great
idea to guide him in it, and his sorrow
for the loss of his mother so far de-
veloped it that he sought to give expres-
sion to it.

And Dennis tells us that, "after spellin'
through the spellin'-book twict he tuk
to writin' on the cabin, the fence rails,
and the wooden fire-shovel with a bit o'
charcoal. It pestered Tom a heap," he
says, "to have Abe writin' all over every-
thing, but Abe was just wropped up
in it.

"* Denny,' he says to me many a time,
'Look at that, will you? Abraham
Lincoln, That stands fur me. Don't

10 AN INTERVIEW

look a blamed bit like me.' An' he'd
stand an' study it a spell. 'Peared to
mean a heap to Abe."

And it did mean a heap to Abe. And
it has come to mean a heap to us.

"When Tom got mad at his markin'
the cabin up," Dennis says, "Abe tuk
to markin' trees Tom wanted to cut
down with his name, an' writin' it in the
sands at the deer-lick."

Where it washed out. But he after-
wards wrote it where it did not wash out
— and will not wash out.

And having immersed this child in
poverty and sorrow, and thereby so far
developed the idea that had been given
to him as to commit him to it, fortune
now smiled upon him, and gave him a
mother in the place of the one that had
been taken away from him.

In telling us about it Dennis says:

"Tom he moped around. He put
the corn in, in the Spring, an' left Abe

AN INTERVIEW 11

an' me to tend it, an' lit out fur Kain-
tucky. An' we was well-nigh tickled
to death when he brung a new wife
home.

"She 'd been Sairy Bush, an' Tom 'd
been in love with her before he met up
with Nancy. But her folks would n't let
him have 'er because he was so shif'less.
So she married a man named Johnston,
an' he died an' she an' Tom got married.

"She had three children of 'er own,
an' a four-hoss wagon load o' goods —
feather pillers, an' homespun blankets,
an' patchwork quilts, an' a chest o'
drawers, an' a flax wheel, an' a soap
kettle, an' cookin' pots, an' pewter
dishes.

"Aunt Sairy was a woman o' property,
an' could 'a' done better, I reckon. But
Tom had a kind o' way with the women,
an' maybe it was somethin' she tuk com-
fort in to have a man that did n't drink,
or swear none.

12 AN INTERVIEW

"She made a heap more o' Tom, too,
than poor Nancy did, an' before winter
he 'd put in a new floor he 'd whipsawed
an' planed off so she could scour it. An'
made some good beds an' cheers, an'
tinkered the roof so it could n't snow
on us boys 'at slep' in the loft.

"Thar was eight of us to do fur, but
Aunt Sairy had faculty, an' did n't 'pear
to be hurried or worried none. Little
Sairy cherked right up, with a mother
an' two sisters fur company.

"She married," Dennis tells us,
" purty young, an' died with her fust
baby." '

But while the sorrow of little Abe for
the loss of his mother so far developed
the idea that had been given him that
he sought to give expression to it by
writing his name on the fence rails, and
the fire-shovel, and in the sands at the
deer-lick, it did not so far develop it that
he could give expression to it, and as he

AN INTERVIEW 13

could get no help from those about him,
he turned to books.

"Denny," he would say, "the thing
I want to know is in books, an' my best
friend 's the man that will get me one."

"Well," Dennis says, "books weren't
as plenty in them days as wild-cats, but
I got him one by cuttin' cordwood."

How he was directed in the selection
of it he does not tell us, but certain it is
that he was rightly directed in it, for
what little Abe needed was something
to arouse his imagination to lead his
idea out, and the book that Dennis got
for him was of all books the best suited
for this, for it was "The Arabian Nights'
E ntertainments . ' '

"It had a lot of yarns in it," Dennis
tells us. "One I recollect was about a
feller that got near some darned rock
that drawed all the nails out o' his boat,
an' he got a duckin'. Was n't a blamed
bit o' sense in it, but Abe 'd lay on his

14 AN INTERVIEW

stumick by the fire, an' read out loud to
me an' Aunt Sairy by the hour, an'
we 'd laugh when he did, though I reckon
it went in at one ear and out at the other
with her, as it did with me.

"'Abe,' I sez, many a time, 'them
yarns is all lies.'

"'Mighty darn good lies,' he'd say,
an' go on readin' an' chucklin' to him-
self, till Tom 'd cover up the fire fur the
night an' shoo him off to bed."

But little Abe not only needed some-
thing to arouse his imagination to lead
his idea out, but he needed something
to associate it with after it was led out.
And to supply him with this, Fortune
threw into his hands a copy of "The Re-
vised Statutes of Indiana," which was
just suited for it, for it was an earlier
form of his idea and served him the
same purpose in developing it that is
served those that develop mechanical
ideas by the earlier forms of them, and

AN INTERVIEW 15

Dennis tells us that he would lay over it
half the night.

But while the book that Fortune thus
threw into his hands was of great value
to him, being an earlier form of his idea,
and not the form that he sought to give
it, it did not satisfy him, and he became
more anxious for books than ever.

"He cut four cords o' wood onct,"
Dennis tells us, "to get one stingy little
slice o' a book. It was the life of George
Washington."

And from this on it was books and
ever more books. "Seems to me now,"
Dennis says, "I never seen Abe after he
was twelve 'at he did n't have a book in
his hand, or in his pocket. He 'd put a
book inside his shirt an' fill his pants
pockets with corn dodgers an' go off to
plow, or hoe, an' when noon come he 'd
set under a tree an' read an' eat. An'
when he came home at night he 'd tilt
a cheer back by the chimbly, and put

16 AN INTERVIEW

his feet on the rung, an' set on his back-
bone an' read.

"Aunt Sairy always put a candle on
the mantelpiece fur him if she had one.
An' as like as not Abe 'd eat his supper
thar, takin' anything that she 'd give
him that he could gnaw at an' read at
the same time.

"I 've seen many a feller come in an'
look at him, Abe not knowin' that any-
body was around, an' sneak out ag'in
like a cat, an' say, 'Well, I '11 be darned.'
It did n't seem nateral nohow to see a
feller read like that. Aunt Sairy never
let the children pester him. She always
said Abe 'd be a great man some day,
an' she was n't goin' to have him hin-
dered."

And now the scene changes.

"Well," old Dennis says, "le' me see.
Yes, I reckon it was John Hanks 'at
got res'less fust an' lit out fur Illinois,
an' wrote fur us all to come, an' he 'd git

AN INTERVIEW 17

land fur us. Tom was always ready to
move. He never had his land in Indiany
paid fur anyhow.

"So he sold off his corn an' hogs, an'
piled everything into ox wagons an' we
all went, the Lincolns an' the Hankses
an' Johnstons, all hangin' together. I
reckon we was like one o' them lost
tribes o' Israel that you can't break up
nohow. An' Tom was always lookin'
fur the land o' Canaan.

"Thar was five famblies of us, an'
Abe. It tuk two weeks to git thar,
raftin' over the Wabash, cuttin' our
way through the woods, fordin' rivers,
pryin' wagons out o' sloughs with fence
rails, an' makin' camp.

"Abe cracked a joke every time he
cracked a whip, an' found a way out o'
every tight place while the rest o' us
was standin' 'round scratchin' our fool
heads. I reckon Abe an' Aunt Sairy
run that movin', an' it 's a good thing

2

18 AN INTERVIEW

they did, or it 'd 'a' be'n run into a
swamp an' sucked under.

"Abe helped put up a cabin fur Tom
on the Sangamon, clear fifteen acres fur
corn, an' split walnut rails to fence it.
Abe was some'ers 'round twenty-one." 1

And here we must part with Tom,
Aunt Sairy, and Cousin Dennis, for here
little Abe, no longer little, parted with
them, and went out in the world, so far
as outward wealth was concerned, ex-
cept for his axe and the clothes on his
back, as poor as when he came into it.
And to support himself, among other
things he split three thousand rails that
Fall, walking three miles to his work.

And the next Spring Denton Offutt
hired him to take a boat-load of stock

1 For the foregoing statements of Dennis Hanks
we are indebted to an interview had with him by Mrs.
Eleanor Atkinson in 1889 at Charleston, Illinois, a
full account of which she has put into a little book en-
titled "The Boyhood of Lincoln," published by
Doubleday, Page and Company, New York.

AN INTERVIEW 19

and provision to New Orleans, where
we are told that seeing for the first time
human beings put upon the block and
sold like cattle, he said:

"Boys, let 's get away from here."
And that as they went away he said :
"If ever I get a chance to hit that
thing I '11 hit it hard."
Which he afterwards did.
That Fall— the Fall of 1831 — after
returning from New Orleans he became
a clerk in Offutt's store in the town of
New Salem, where his idea again as-
serted itself, as did his hunger for books
to assist him in developing it, and he
read everything that he could get hold
of, and wrote of everything that he read,
and so far developed it by doing so
that he again sought to give expression
to it.

And being associated as it was in his
mind with the form of it that had been
thrown into his hands while in Indiana

20 AN INTERVIEW

— "The Revised Statutes" of that State

— he got consciousness of it that the
way to do so was through them, or rather
through the political institutions they
represented, and announced himself
as a candidate for the legislature and
began making speeches to secure his
election.

But this was soon put a stop to, for,
the Blackhawk War coming on, he en-
listed, and was elected Captain of his
company, and for the first time became
officially connected with the institutions
of his country. And as it was through
the institutions of his country that he
sought to give expression to the idea
that had been given him, it gave him
more satisfaction, as he afterwards said,
than any other success of his life.

But the war was soon over, and com-
ing back he renewed his canvass for the
legislature, but was defeated.

And in the meantime, what with his

AN INTERVIEW 21

interest in his idea, and Offutt's interest
in him — for, neglecting his business,
he went about declaring that "Abe was
the greatest man in the United States,
and would be President some day — "
the store, as Lincoln put it, "petered
out," and left him without employ-
ment, and he thought of learning the
blacksmith's trade.

But his fate would not have it so, and
persuaded him to buy a half-interest
in a store, although he had nothing to
give for it but his note, and his partner
was as poor as he was.

And having done so, he again settled
himself to reading, and his partner
settled himself to drinking; and to pre-
vent them from breaking up before he
had read the books that it was necessary
for him to read to do the work that had
been laid upon him, it persuaded them
to buy the stock of two stores more
and add to the stock of the first one,

22 AN INTERVIEW

which they accordingly did, giving their
notes for the entire thing.

And now that he was comfortably
settled in reading, and his partner com-
fortably settled in drinking, his fate ap-
peared to him in the guise of an emigrant
passing through town and sold him a
barrel without his looking into it.

He relates the visitation in this wise :

"One day," he says, "a man who was
migrating to the West drove up in front
of the store with a wagon which con-
tained his family and household plun-
der. He asked me if I would buy an
old barrel for which he had no room in
his wagon, and which he said contained
nothing of special value.

"I did not want it, but to oblige him
I bought it, and paid him, I think, half
a dollar for it. Without further ex-
amination I put it away in the store and
forgot all about it.

"Some time after, in overhauling

AN INTERVIEW 23

things, I came upon this barrel, and
emptying it upon the floor to see what it
contained, I found at the bottom of the
rubbish a complete set of Blackstone's
Commentaries. I began to read these
famous works. And the more I read
the more interested I became. Never
in my life was I so thoroughly absorbed.
I read until I devoured them."

And then he got other law books and
devoured them. And what with his
reading law at one end of the store, and
his partner drinking at the other, their
business slipped away from them, and
his partner ran off and left him to pay
the notes that they had given for it.

Which was fair enough, for his part-
ner got nothing out of the venture, while
he got the knowledge of the law out of
it which it was necessary for him to
have to do the work he was selected for.

But while such was the purpose of the
knowledge of the law that he thus ac-

24 AN INTERVIEW

quired, the idea that had been given
him was not yet sufficiently developed to
give him consciousness of it, and his fate
again immersed him in sorrow to develop
it further that he might not lose sight of
the work that he was selected for in the
practice of it.

And this is the way it did it :
Among the young men who early
took up their abode in the town of New
Salem was John McNeil, as he called
himself, from the State of New York.
And he fell in love with Ann Rutledge,
and she in love with him, and they be-
came engaged; of which Lincoln was
aware, but thinking that it was not his
affair he paid no attention to it.

And in the meantime he was ap-
pointed Postmaster of the little town
that they lived in. And so for a time it
went on — he handling the mail that
came and went, and John McNeil mak-
ing love to Ann Rutledge.

AN INTERVIEW 25

But in coming West McNeil had left
his parents behind, and he and Ann
decided that before their marriage he
should go back after them. And he set
out upon his journey.

Before going far, however, he took
sick of a fever, and was sick a long time,
not even being able to write letters to
her, which she came every day to the
Post Office expecting to receive. And
finally she told Lincoln of the distress
that she was in, and in his pity for her
he fell in love with her himself, and told
her of it.

And who could blame him ? For we
are told that "she was of sweet and gentle
manner, with blue eyes and golden hair,
with lips as red as cherries, and cheeks
like the wild rose."

And despairing of her lover ever re-
turning, she listened to him, and they
became engaged.

But her heart was elsewhere; and

26 AN INTERVIEW

before the day set for the wedding she
sickened and died, and he was plunged
into the deepest sorrow.

And that abiding melancholy, that
painful sense of the incompleteness of
life that his developing idea gave him,
and that is seen in all his likenesses, as-
serted itself, and clouded his mind.

We are told that one stormy night he
sat with his head bowed in his hands
while tears ran down his cheeks, and
that to a friend who begged him to con-
trol his sorrow he said:

"I cannot ! The thought of the snow
and rain falling on her grave fills me
with indescribable grief."

We are further told that he was often
seen walking alone, muttering strange
things to himself, and that his friends
kept a close watch on him; and that
finally one of them took him to his home
and kept him there until he recovered
himself.

AN INTERVIEW 27

Ann Rutledge was buried in Concord
Cemetery, where Lincoln often went to
weep over her grave.

"My heart is buried there," he once
said to a friend who accompanied him.

But his sorrow so far developed his
idea that he became more anxious to
give expression to it than ever, and he
again announced himself as a candi-
date for the legislature, and was elected,
as he had been elected to the preceding
one, but his idea was not yet sufficiently
developed for anything to come of it.

But by the time the next legislature
met, to which he was also elected, it had
so far developed that he gave expres-
sion to it in the following protest that
he drew up and signed, with one other:

"Resolutions upon the subject of
domestic slavery having passed both
branches of the General Assembly at its
present session, the undersigned hereby
protest against the passage of the same.

28 AN INTERVIEW;

"They believe that the institution of
slavery is founded both on injustice and
bad policy, but that the promulgation
of abolition doctrines tends rather to in-
crease than to abate its evils.

"They believe that the Congress of
the United States has no power under
the Constitution to interfere with the
institution of slavery in the different
states.

"They believe that the Congress of the
United States has the power under
the Constitution to abolish slavery in
the District of Columbia, but that the
power ought not to be exercised without
the request of the people of the District."

And thus it came about that the idea
that he had sought to give expression to
when a child by writing his name on
the fire-shovel, and the fence rails, and
in the sands at the deer-lick, he sought
to give expression to when a man, by
writing it on a protest against the insti-

AN INTERVIEW 29

tution of slavery in the legislature of a
sovereign State, — Abraham Lincoln.

And it meant a heap to Abe. For
it so far developed it that it gave him
consciousness that it was opposed to
the institution of slavery also, and there-
fore to one of the institutions of his
country, and as he sought to give ex-
pression to it through the institutions of
his country, revealed to him the difficulty
of doing so. And while trying to reach
a solution of it, his friends thought that
he was losing his mind. And hoping
that a change of scenery would benefit
him they sent him off to Kentucky.

What he suffered during this time we
know something of from a letter that he
wrote to his partner who was in Wash-
ington as a member of Congress.

"I am," he wrote, "the most miser-
able man living. If what I feel were
equally distributed to the whole human
family, there would not be a cheerful

30 AN INTERVIEW

face on the earth. Whether I shall ever
be better I cannot tell; I awfully fore-
bode I shall not. To remain as I am is
impossible. I must die or be better, it
appears to me."

It was while in this condition of mind
that he broke his engagement with Mary
Todd, whom he afterwards married.
We are told that the wedding supper
was prepared, and that the guests were
gathered, but that he failed to appear,
and that he was found the next morning
in a dazed condition. Certain it is that
something of the kind occurred.

And certain it is that while in Ken-
tucky his idea sufficiently developed for
him to begin to see his way, and that
it was to be given expression through
the General and not through the State
government, for he came back much
improved, and renewing the engagement
that he had broken off with Mary Todd
he got married, and announced himself

AN INTERVIEW 31

as a candidate for Congress — against
Edward D. Baker and John J. Harding.

But by the time the Convention came
on, his idea had so far developed as to
give him consciousness that while it was
to be given expression through the Gen-
eral and not through the State govern-
ment, it was not yet sufficiently de-
veloped to be so expressed; and upon
Harding being nominated, which was
done at his suggestion, he got the Con-
vention to pass a resolution pledging
the nomination to Baker for the next
term, thereby putting off the time of his
entering Congress two years more, and
making it surer that at the end of that
time he would do so, by which time he
hoped that his idea would be sufficiently
developed for him to give proper expres-
sion to it there.

Accordingly at the end of four years,
which he spent in practicing law, which
he had sometime before entered upon

32 AN INTERVIEW

in Springfield — and in developing his
idea further — he was duly nominated
and elected.

And even then his idea was not suffi-
ciently developed for him to give proper
expression to it in Congress, and his
election was a disappointment to him,
as we know from a letter that he wrote
to a friend about it, in which he said :

"Being elected to Congress, though I
am grateful to our friends for having
done it, has not pleased me as much as
I expected."

And when he got to Washington he
found that all that he could do toward
giving expression to his idea was to ex-
press the consciousness that it had given
him that it was opposed to the institu-
tion of slavery, as he had done in the
State legislature, which he did by intro-
ducing a bill to abolish it in the District
of Columbia, and voting for "The Wil-
mot Proviso," declaring that it should

AN INTERVIEW 33

not exist in any territory that might be
acquired by the Mexican War, that was
then in progress.

But while his idea was not sufficiently
developed for him to give any further
expression to it than he had given to
it in the State legislature, his going
to Washington was a great advantage
to him, for while there he was invited to
Boston to make a speech, where he heard
the great anti-slavery advocate William
H. Seward make one which so far de-
veloped his idea that it gave him con-
sciousness that the institution of slavery
was an expression of the opposite one ;
and that however much his idea might
be developed it could not be given ex-
pression through the government until
the institution of slavery was out of the
way. And that night as they sat talking
he said:

"Governor Seward, I have been think-
ing over what you said in your speech.

3

34 AN INTERVIEW

I reckon you are right. We have got to
deal with this question of slavery, and
got to give more attention to it hereafter
than we have been doing."

And upon returning home his destiny
again arose before him in the form of
the resolution that he had got the Con-
gressional Convention to pass when he
first became a candidate, limiting Hard-
ing to one term, and which, being ob-
served in the case of his successor Baker,
limited him to one term also, and he was
not again a candidate, and went back to
practicing law and developing his idea
further.

But the matter now took another
turn, for in 1854 Congress passed the
Kansas-Nebraska bill, which in effect re-
pealed the Missouri Compromise, which,
being followed in 1856 by the Dred
Scott decision, holding that property in
slaves could be held in the Territories,
was a step toward holding that property

AN INTERVIEW 35

in them could be held in the States, and
having consciousness that expression
could not be given to his idea through
the government until the institution of
slavery was out of the way, the threat-
ened extension of it alarmed him, and he
began making speeches against it. And
this led to something else.

For while doing so his idea associated
itself in his mind with the conception
that our fathers had got of it that all
men are created equal, and that govern-
ments derive their just powers from the
consent of the governed, and gave him
consciousness that the conception that
they had got of it was opposed to slavery
also. And in a speech that he made at
Beardstown, August 12, 1858, he said:

"The men who signed the Declaration of In-
dependence said that all men are created equal,
and are endowed by their Creator with certain
inalienable rights, — life, liberty, and the pursuit
of happiness. This was their majestic interpre-

36 AN INTERVIEW

tation of the economy of the universe. This
was their lofty, and wise, and noble understand-
ing of the justice of the Creator to his crea-
tures — yes, gentlemen, to all his creatures —
to the whole great family of man. In their en-
lightened belief nothing stamped with the divine
image and likeness was sent into the world to be
trodden on and imbruted by its fellows. They
grasped not only the whole race of men then
living, but they reached forward and seized upon
the farthest posterity. They erected a beacon
to guide their children, and their children's chil-
dren, and the countless myriads who shall in-
habit the earth in all ages.

"Wise statesmen that they were, they knew
the tendency of posterity to breed tyrants, and
so they established these self-evident truths, that
when in the distant future, some man, some
faction, some interest, should set up the doc-
trine that none but rich men, none but white
men, none but Anglo-Saxon white men, were
entitled to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happi-
ness, their posterity might again look up the
Declaration of Independence and take courage
to renew the battle their fathers began; so that
truth, and justice, and all humane and Christian

AN INTERVIEW 37

virtues might not be extinguished from the land ;
so that no man would hereafter dare to limit and
circumscribe the principles on which the temple
of liberty is being built."

And in the meantime he and Judge
Douglas, who brought in the Kansas-
Nebraska bill, were nominated by their
respective parties for the United States
Senate, and Lincoln challenged him for
joint debate, which challenge he ac-
cepted, and six days thereafter at Ot-
tawa, where the first debate was held,
in opening his speech Douglas said:

"Mr. Lincoln reads from the Declaration of
Independence that all men are created equal,
and then asks, How can you deprive the negro
of the equality which God and the Declaration
of Independence awards him? He maintains
that negro equality is guaranteed by the law of
God, and that it is asserted in the Declaration
of Independence. If he thinks so, of course he
has the right to think so, and so vote. I do not
question Mr. Lincoln's conscientious belief that
the negro is his equal, and hence his brother;

38 AN INTERVIEW

but for my own part, I do not regard the negro
as my equal, and positively deny that he is my
brother, or any kin to me whatever."

To which Lincoln replied:

"I agree with Judge Douglas that the negro
is not my equal in many respects — certainly
not in color, perhaps not in moral or intellectual
endowment. But in the right to eat the bread,
without the leave of anybody else, which his own
hands earn, he is my equal, and the equal of Judge
Douglas, and the equal of every living many

For the idea that had been given him
having associated itself in his mind with
the conception that our fathers had got
of it that all men are created equal, and
that governments derive their just pow-
ers from the consent of the governed,
gave his consciousness that it was just
as contrary to that conception to govern
the industrial action of others without
their consent as it was contrary to it to
govern their political action without their
consent.

AN INTERVIEW 39

I see him now through the mist of
years, tall, gaunt, and sad-faced, bur-
dened with his developing idea. Doug-
las, jovial, rotund, and low of stature,
is standing behind him, for he is so dis-
turbed by the turn that the debate has
taken that he cannot keep his seat while
Lincoln is talking.

Over there is a banner held aloft by the
hand of beauty and innocence, inscribed :

"Westward the star of empire takes its way,
The girls link on to Lincoln, as their mothers
were for Clay."

And over there another, inscribed:
"Abe the Giant killer."

And over there another, saying:
'The Little Giant eating Abe up."

And over all the motto:

"Free Territories, and Free Men,
Free Pulpits, and Free Preachers,
Free Press, and Free Pen,
Free Schools* and Free Teachers."

40 AN INTERVIEW

And now we hear the voice of Lincoln
vibrant with the idea that had been given
him.

"Now," he says, "my countrymen, if you
have been taught doctrines conflicting with the
great landmarks of the Declaration of Inde-
pendence; if you have listened to suggestions
that would take away from its grandeur, and
mutilate the fair symmetry of its proportions;
if you have been inclined to believe that all men
are not created equal in those inalienable rights
enumerated in our chart of liberty, let me en-
treat you to come back. Return to the fountain
whose waters sprang close to the blood of the
Revolution.

"Think nothing of me. Take no thought of
the political fate of any man whomsoever, but
come back to the truths that are in the Declara-
tion of Independence. You may do any thing
with me you choose if you will but heed these
sacred principles. You may not only defeat me
for the Senate, but you may take me and put
me to death.

"While pretending no indifference to earthly
honors, I do claim to be actuated in this con-

AN INTERVIEW 41

test by something more than mere anxiety for
office. I charge you to drop every paltry and
insignificant thought of any man's success. I am
nothing. Judge Douglas is nothing. But do not
destroy that immortal emblem of humanity —
the American Declaration of Independence."

But there is something other than the
speeches and banners of these debates
that is important to us, for in the sec-
ond of them, at Freeport, Lincoln asked
Douglas a question, and the answer that
he gave to it will affect us to the very
latest times.

The question was this:

" Can the people of a United States Territory
in any lawful way, against the wishes of any
citizen of the United States, exclude slavery
from its limits prior to the formation of a State
Constitution ? "

And Douglas said Yes to it, and so
pleased his constituents that they elected
him to the Senate; but because of his
doing so, when the Convention of his

42 AN INTERVIEW

party met in 1860 to nominate a candi-
date for President the Southern dele-
gates refused to vote for him, and the
Northern delegates refusing to vote for
any one else, the Convention split and
nominated two candidates — Douglas
and Breckenridge — and Lincoln was
elected over both.

And then the matter took another
turn, for no sooner was it known that he
was elected than the Southern States
began to take steps to destroy the gov-
ernment, and having consciousness that
it was only through the government that
the idea that had been given him could
be expressed, he begged them to desist :

"We are not enemies," he said, "but friends.
We must not be enemies. Though passion may
have strained, it must not break our bonds of
affection. The mystic chords of memory stretch-
ing from every battlefield and patriot grave to
every living heart and hearthstone all over this
broad land will yet swell the chorus of the Union,

AN INTERVIEW 43

when again touched, as surely it will be, by the
better angels of our nature."

There had been nothing more pathetic
since Calvary.

But they heeded him not, and on the
twelfth of the following April they fired
upon Fort Sumter.

And then the idea that had been given
him asserted itself in quite another way,
and he called for seventy-five thousand
men to save the Union.

And then the conception of it that
our fathers had given us asserted itself
in the same way, and we answered:

" We are coming, Father Abraham, three hundred
thousand more."

" We '11 rally 'round the flag, boys, we '11 rally
once again,
Shouting the battle cry of freedom."

And thus it came about that the idea
that had been given him was united
with the conception that our fathers had

44 AN INTERVIEW

given us of it on the field of battle, and
that every shot that we fired in the Civil
War was fired for industrial as well as
political liberty.

And that there might be no mistake as
to his paramount purpose in the war,
that it might not be thought that he
waged it simply to destroy slavery, he
said:

"If there are those who would not save the
Union unless they could destroy slavery, I do
not agree with them. My paramount purpose
is to save the Union, and it is neither to save nor
destroy slavery. If I could save the Union with-
out freeing any slave, I would do it; and if I
could save it by freeing all of the slaves, I would
do it ; and if I could save it by freeing some and
leaving others alone, I would do that. What I
do about slavery and the colored race, I do be-
cause I believe it helps to save the Union; and
what I forbear, I forbear, because I do not be-
lieve it will help to save the Union."

It was this paramount purpose of his,
this purpose of his to save the govern-

AN INTERVIEW 45

merit that our fathers created of our
political action, that through it the idea
that had been given him might be ex-
pressed in a government of our indus-
trial action, that gave him that far-away
look that was so frequently spoken of by
those that knew him.

"He was a terribly homely man,"
says Colonel John F. McCook, who
often saw him; "and yet there was
something wonderful in his face, an in-
tangible something like a light from
within. He seemed to be always looking
out beyond the person he talked to or
the scene he looked at."

Yes; he was looking out beyond the
person he talked to or the scene he
looked at — looking out beyond to you
and to me, and to "our children, and our
children's children, and to the countless
myriads that shall inhabit the earth in
all ages," by the light of the idea that
had been given him.

46 AN INTERVIEW

But he not only looked out beyond the
person he talked to or the scene he
looked at, but he looked in at the idea
that made it possible for him to do so,
and this gave him that introspective
look which was so frequently spoken of
by those that knew him.

And it was this looking out to his
vision, and back to the idea that gave
rise to it, that was the paramount bur-
den of this great soul, and not the
burden that the South laid upon him.
For in doing so he bore their burden as
he bore ours. And as one that bears
the burden of another feels the woes of
another, he felt their woes as he felt
ours, and they wrung from him an ex-
pression of anguish that has no parallel
in all the annals of war.

"I have not suffered," he said, "by
the South, I have suffered with the
South."

And its only parallel in moral gran-

AN INTERVIEW 47

deur was wrung from the lips of the mar-
tyr of Galilee:

" Father, forgive them, for they know not what
they do."

Hannibal made war for revenge,
Caesar and Alexander for ambition,
Washington for justice and the love of
his country, the Christ-like Lincoln for
his love of the enemies of it, and the
consciousness that he had that they were
mistaken in being so.

Whom he loved he chastened.

That the South felt something of this
is shown by the confession of one of her
most sensitive souls:

"I love the South," he said,

"And dared for her to fight from Lookout to the
sea
With her proud banner over me.
But from my lips thanksgiving broke,
When God in battle-thunder spoke,
And that black Idol, breeding drouth

48 AN INTERVIEW

And dearth of human sympathy
Throughout the sweet and sensuous South,
Was with her chains and human yokes
Blown hellward from the cannon's mouth,
While freedom cheered behind the smoke." f

And a like confession was made by
one of her greatest generals.

"Your loss," he said, "would have
been our loss, and your gain has been
our gain." 2

And what with his suffering and a
great war to direct, he was able to keep
one eye on his idea and the other on the
vision that it gave him, marks him as
one of the greatest men of all times.
For the greatness of men is measured
by the burdens that are laid upon them
and the manner in which they bear them.

And no greater burdens were ever
laid upon any man than were laid upon

1 Maurice Thompson.

2 General Longstreet, to the Union veterans at
Atlanta.

AN INTERVIEW 49

Abraham Lincoln. For had he lost
sight of his idea he would have been lost
in the mazes of his vision. And had he
lost sight of his vision he would have
been lost in the mazes of his idea. But
he lost sight of neither, and with a steadi-
ness of purpose that was sublime pro-
ceeded to the development of both.

And above the war for the Union his
vision grew until it became the vision
of his country as it is to be. And in it
there was no slavery. And patiently
abiding his time he wrote his name on a
proclamation saving it so — Abraham
Lincoln.

It meant a heap to Abe.

And it means a heap to us.

For thereby he made it possible for
the idea that had been given him to be
given expression through the govern-
ment that our fathers created of our
political action in a government of our
industrial action.

4

50 AN INTERVIEW

And then he was stricken down,
leaving us the heritage of his idea and
his vision, and the duty of creating a
government of our industrial action to
correspond to them.

And his vision is arising before us
even now, as the idea that was given him
is struggling within us.

And in it I see arising a new temple of
liberty, in which none will be hungry
and receive not meat, none thirsty and
receive not drink. For it will be dedi-
cated to human need; and will have all
the power of all the genius that has
lived and wrought since the morning
stars sang together.

And under its control will be the whirr
of all spindles and the beating of all
looms. And the machinery that now
lifts the burden off of some of our
backs will then lift the burden off all
of our backs. For it will be under the
control of the great heart of humanity

AN" INTERVIEW 51

that will heed the cry of sorrow and of
hunger.

Against this great time that in his
vision I plainly see, how poor and worth-
less our strifes appear ! How as nothing
the bickerings of the market and the
greed of trade ! For in the new time it
will be no me and mine, but us and ours.

For we are now to go forward to the
consummation of civilization, or back-
ward to the destruction of it.

Before us lie the green pastures and
still waters of plenty and peace ; behind
us, the desert and the mountains over
which we have marched with parched
lips and bleeding feet.

With one more effort we may enter
the land that our aspirations and our
hopes have promised us ever since the
sublime idea of our equality arose in our
consciousness to guide us on our way,
and that until now we have never
doubted or hesitated to follow, although

52 AN INTERVIEW

our fidelity to it has been tested at every
step of our progress.

It was fidelity to this idea, the following
it and trusting it, that led us in triumph
through the Revolutionary War.

It was fidelity to this idea, the following
it and trusting it, that led us in triumph
through the War of the Rebellion.

It was fidelity to this idea, the fol-
lowing it and trusting it, that led us in
triumph through our war with Spain.

And it was only after that war was
over, only after the last gun had been
fired in the cause of the liberty of Cuba,
that we turned our faces from its light.

But it will only be for the moment.
For before long the fires of patriotism
will be burning in all hearts. And we
will again turn our faces toward the
star that Washington set in our skies,
and that Lincoln never lost sight of.

And following it we will go forward to
our sublime destiny, not that of con-

AN INTERVIEW 53

quering the islands of the seas, but of
establishing upon this continent a gov-
ernment of the people, by the people,
and for the people, that cannot perish
from the earth.

For when we have applied the idea
to the government of our industrial
action that our fathers applied to the
government of our political action, we
can defy all foes.

And while the new application of it
cannot be made without difficulty, it
will be no such difficulty as we have
heretofore met with.

For since we left the birthplace of the
race in our attempt to realize a right
condition of society, our course has been
marked with the graves of nations.

But this nation will not die.

Our difficulty will be that of birth;
and we will be sustained in it by the con-
sciousness that when it is over we will
have realized the hopes and the aspira-

54 AN INTERVIEW

tions of all of the ages through the idea
and the vision of him who from the
floorless cabin reached the highest round
in the ladder of fame, and stepped into
the skies.

n

AFTER the foregoing address the
"*^ author accorded the reporter the
following interview :

Reporter. It would seem from your
address that the declaration of our
fathers that all men are created equal
and that governments derive their just
powers from the consent of the governed
is a conception of an idea that lies back
of it.

Author. Yes, it is a conception of
the idea from which they created our
government.

Reporter. Then they did not cre-
ate our government from the conception
that all men are created equal, and that
governments derive their just powers
from the consent of the governed?

56 AN INTERVIEW

Author. No; that conception sim-
ply guided them in creating it from the
idea of the unity of our action; or,
speaking more generally, from the idea
of the unity of the action of the uni-
verse, from which the idea of the unity
of our action arose.

Reporter. What was their purpose
in creating our government ?

Author. Their purpose in creating
our government was to carry the idea
of the unity of our action out by more
perfectly uniting our political action, or,
as they expressed it, by forming a more
perfect union of it.

Reporter. Then our government is
a form of the idea of the unity of our
action to more perfectly unite our politi-
cal action ?

Author. Yes, or speaking more gen-
erally, it is a form of the idea of the
unity of the action of the universe to
more perfectly unite our political action.

AN INTERVIEW 57

Reporter. Then it was the idea of
the unity of our action, or speaking more
generally, the idea of the unity of the
action of the universe, that was given
Abraham Lincoln ?

Author. Yes; and what he sought
was the expression of it in a government
to more perfectly unite our industrial
action, as our fathers had expressed it
in a government to more perfectly unite
our political action, for it developed more
perfectly in his mind than it developed
in theirs, and gave him consciousness
that it applied to the one as well as to
the other.

Reporter. But he did not express it
in a government of our industrial action ?

Author. No; for before it could be
expressed in a government of our in-
dustrial action, our industrial action
had to be more perfectly developed than
it then was.

Moreover, to say nothing about the

58 AN INTERVIEW

institution of slavery being in the way,
the expression of it in a government of
our industrial action is a much more
difficult matter than the expression of
it in a government of our political ac-
tion. And before it could be expressed
in a government of our industrial action
it had to be more fully developed in our
minds than it then was.

Reporter. But where did we get
the idea of the unity of the action of the
universe ?

Author. We developed it.

Reporter. But how did we develop
it?

Author. That is quite a long story.

Reporter. But it must be a very
interesting one, and as it is a dark day
out I should like to listen to it.

And glancing through the window said,
" It is gloomy."

And we drew nearer to the fire, and
he proceeded.

AN INTERVIEW 59

Author. Now the method by which
we develop our ideas of things is to first
get an imperfect idea of them, then a
more perfect one, and so on, until our
idea of them is complete. And the first
idea that we got of the action of the uni-
verse was that it is carried on by many
persons like ourselves.

For observing that rivers overflowing
their channels at certain seasons of the
year left a sedimentary deposit upon the
adjacent soil, without which we could not
raise our crops, we got the idea that they
were looking after us.

And as heat is just as essential to our
crops as fertility of soil, seeing that it
came from the sun, we got the idea that
it was looking after us also. And as
moisture is just as essential as heat, we
said it was furnished in the same way —
and so on.

But this idea was soon modified, for
we soon saw that the rivers did not al-

60 AN INTERVIEW

ways rise just high enough to make the
necessary deposit — that they sometimes
arose so high as to wash away our houses.
That the sun did not always furnish the
right amount of heat — that it some-
times furnished so much as to dry every-
thing up. That we were not always
furnished the right amount of moisture
— that we were sometimes furnished
so much as to drown us out. And we
said that these persons were not always
looking after us — that they were some-
times getting after us. And we began
to study how to keep them in a good
humor, and finally got an idea of how to
do so.

Reporter. How did we get it ?

Author. We got it in some such
way as this :

One of the first things that we per-
sonified was fire. Like the sun, it fur-
nished us both light and heat; and by
striking a flint, or rubbing two sticks

AN INTERVIEW 61

together, we could call it up when we
wanted to.

Moreover, we noticed that if we gave
it but little food it flared up and went out
as though it was angry. That if we gave
it plenty of food it covered itself up and
went to sleep, ready to be waked up in
the morning. And we got the idea from
this that it was like ourselves — that
the way to keep it in a good humor was
to give it plenty to eat. And from this
we get the notion that what would satisfy
one of the persons that carried on the
action of the universe would satisfy the
others.

But this got us into trouble, for there
were some of them that we could n't get
the food to.

As to the rivers, we could throw the
food to them. And there was no use
bothering ourselves about the sun, for
the feeding of one fire ought to satisfy
another.

62 AN INTERVIEW

The difficulty was with the persons
that we had n't located.

But finally we got the idea that smell
would satisfy them. And as the pleas-
ure of smell depends upon what 's burn-
ing, we began to sacrifice sheep and
goats.

And having satisfied ourselves as to
this matter, we began to think about
how the universe was created, and finally
got an idea of it.

Reporter. What idea did we get of
it?

Author. We got this idea of it:

We said that the earth was first made,
and then the sky. That these two got
married and produced the ocean, time,
and a few giants. That the ocean mar-
ried one of these giants and produced
the rivers and mountains, and some
three hundred daughters.

Reporter. That would have been
a good place for a man to get a wife.

AN INTERVIEW 63

Author. Yes ; a man that could n't
find one to suit him among so many
would be hard to please.

But the trouble was that that was
before man was created, and they all
turned out to be old maids.

To think of that many in one house-
hold, with no chance of getting rid of
any of them !

And then we began to think about
death. And finally got an idea of it.

Reporter. What idea did we get
of it?

Author. We got this idea of it :

We said that when we die we present
ourselves to a boatman to be ferried
over a river, who asks us if we have
money enough to pay our passage. And
if we have, we are all right ; but if not we
have to wait a hundred years to get over.

Reporter. One would think that
by that time there would n't be much
left of us.

64 AN" INTERVIEW

Author. One would think that if we
knew what we would get to after we got
over we would n't want much left of us.

For upon arriving at the opposite
shore we find ourselves in hell, with the
burden of proof on us to show that we
ought n't to stay there.

If we succeed in doing this we are
passed on to heaven, where, after enjoy-
ing ourselves for awhile, we go to sleep,
and upon awaking find ourselves back
to where we started from without a cent
in our pockets to pay for the return trip.

But in the meantime we had been
looking around some. And we saw that
of a rainy season in the mountains the
rivers always arose over our lands —
that it was only of a dry season that
they did not do so. And we said that
a river was just a river, and that we were
indebted for our crops to the person
that furnished the weather.

And finally we noticed of warm morn-

AN INTERVIEW 65

ings mist arising over rivers and ponds,
and we got the idea that after it arose it
cooled off and fell back again, and that
rain was produced in that way; and we
said that there was n't as many persons
running the universe as we had thought.

And we kept this process up until we
got the idea that there was only one
doing so. Until we passed from Poly-
theism to Monotheism — until we got
the idea of the unity of the action of the
universe.

But this was not the end of the matter,
for the idea that we thus got of the unity
of the action of the universe was an im-
perfect one, and, as frequently happens
in developing ideas, it was the opposite
of the succeeding one. 1 And as the suc-

1 The first idea that we got of the shape of the
earth was that it was flat. The next idea that we got
of it was that it was round. The first idea that we
got of its motion was that it stood still, and that the
sun revolved around it. The next idea that we got of
it was that it revolved around the sun.

5

66 AN INTERVIEW

ceeding one developed we found our-
selves in the deepest distress. We could
not go forward, for a contrary idea lay
in our way. We could not go backward,
for our new idea had too deep a hold
upon us.

And to make the matter worse, we did
not know what the trouble was, for our
new idea was not sufficiently developed
for us to know that we were possessed
of it.

But finally it so far developed that we
got a conception of the difficulty that
we were in.

Reporter. What conception did we
get of it ?

Author. We got this conception of it :

We said that when we were created
we were placed in a beautiful garden,
with permission to eat of all of its fruits,
save the fruit of the tree of knowledge
of good and evil; that a serpent per-
suaded us to eat of the fruit of this tree

AN INTERVIEW 67

also; and that for disobeying him our
Creator drove us out of the garden, and
that this was the cause of our trouble.

Now this conception represented that
we got into our trouble in acquiring
knowledge of good and evil, of right and
wrong ; and that we were persuaded into
it by a serpent — by something subtile,
by something hidden, by something un-
developed — by our new idea of the
unity of the action of the universe. And
this was the way that we did get into it.

Reporter. But we did not so con-
strue it?

Author. No; for our new idea of
the unity of the action of the universe
being undeveloped, the conception that
we thus got of the trouble that we were
in associated itself in our minds with
our old one, and we construed it literally,
and got the idea that our trouble arose
from the anger of the person that we
supposed carried on the action of the

68 AN INTERVIEW

universe. And hoping to appease him
by doing so, we increased the number of
sacrifices that we were making — a prac-
tice that we carried over from our old
idea that the action of the universe is
carried on by many persons.

And finding that this did not do any
good our minds wandered. Sometimes
we thought of a new sacrifice that would
take the place of the old ones. And
sometimes of some one redeeming us —
of some one paying a ransom for us.

And as our new idea developed and
the conception that we had got of the
difficulty that we were in began to sepa-
rate itself from our old one, and give us
a fuller consciousness of our trouble, we
thought of some one delivering us, of
some one getting us out of our difficulty
regardless of our disobedience, or rather
regardless of the interpretation that we
had given of the conception that we had
got of what was the matter with us.

AN INTERVIEW 69

And this led us to thinking of getting
a new conception of it, by which the con-
ception that we had got of it would be
done away with, or, as it presented itself
to us, of getting a new covenant, a new
agreement, by which our disobedience
would be done away with.

But our new idea of the unity of the
action of the universe continuing to de-
velop, instead of getting a new concep-
tion of the trouble that we were in we got
a conception of it.

Reporter. What conception did we
get of it ?

Author. We got this conception of
it: that the kingdom of God was at
hand, or, as we more frequently ex-
pressed it, that the kingdom of heaven
was at hand.

But the conception that we thus got
of our new idea of the unity of the action
of the universe, as with the conception
that we had got of the trouble that we

70 AN INTERVIEW

were in, associated itself in our minds
with our old idea of the unity of the ac-
tion of it, and we got the idea that "the
kingdom of heaven" was coming from
without us instead of from within us,
where it was coming from. Some of us
thinking that it was coming out of the
clouds, and some of us thinking that it
was a government that we had lost that
was to be restored to us.

But our new idea of the unity of the
action of the universe continuing to de-
velop, the conception that we thus got
of it began to separate itself from our
old one, and one of us got consciousness
that it must be entirely separated from
it. That an axe must be laid at the root
of the matter. And that there would
come some one who would thoroughly
purge the floor — of our minds ; and
gather our new idea as wheat in a garner,
and burn up the chaff of it with fire —
with the fire of the truth of it.

AN" INTERVIEW 71

And sure enough some one did come ;
for there was one of us in whose mind
our new idea developed more perfectly
than in the minds of any of the rest of
us, and the conception that we had got
of it separated itself in his mind from our
old one, and associated itself with the
one from which it had arisen.

Reporter. What evidence is there
of that ?

Author. The evidence of a concep-
tion that he got of it.

Reporter. What conception did he
get of it ?

Author. He got this conception of
it:

"A certain man had two sons:

"And the younger oj them said to his
father, Father, give me the portion of
goods that falleth to me. And he divided
unto them his living.

"And not many days after, the younger
son gathered all together, and took his

72 AN INTERVIEW

journey into a far country, and there
wasted his substance with riotous living.

''And when he had spent all, there
arose a mighty famine in that land; and
he began to be in want.

"And he went and joined himself to a
citizen of that country; and he sent him
into his fields to feed swine.

"And he would fain have filled his
belly with the husks that the swine did
eat; and no man gave unto him.

"And when he came to himself, he
said, How many hired servants of my
father's have bread enough and to spare,
and I perish with hunger!

"I will arise and go to my father, and
will say unto him, Father, I have sinned
against heaven, and before thee,

"And am no more worthy to be called
thy son: make me as one of thy hired
servants.

"And he arose, and came to his father.
But when he was yet a great way off, his

AN INTERVIEW 73

father saw him, and had compassion,
and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed
him.

"And the son said unto him, Father,
I have sinned against heaven, and in
thy sight, and am no more worthy to be
called thy son.

"But the father said to his servants,
bring forth the best robe, and put it on
him; and put a ring on his hand, and
shoes on his feet:

"And bring hither the fatted calf, and
kill it; and let us eat, and be merry:

"For this my son was dead, and is
alive again; he was lost, and is found.
And they began to be merry :

"Now his elder son was in the field:
and as he came and drew nigh to the
house, he heard music and dancing.

"And he called one of the servants,
and asked what these things meant.

"And he said unto him, Thy brother
is come; and thy father hath killed the

74 AN INTERVIEW

fatted calf, because he hath received him
safe and sound.

"And he was angry, and would not
go in: therefore came his father out and
entreated him.

"And he answering said to his father,
Lo, these many years do I serve thee,
neither transgressed I at any time thy
commandments; and yet thou never gav-
est me a kid, that I might make merry
with my friends:

"But as soon as this thy son was come,
which hath devoured thy living with har-
lots, thou hast killed for him the fatted
calf.

"And he said unto him, Son, thou art
ever with me, and all that I have is thine.

"It was meet that we should make
merry and be glad: for this thy brother
was dead, and is alive again; and was
lost, and is found."

Reporter. How do you interpret
this conception ?

AN INTERVIEW 75

Author. The man that had two
sons represented our leader.

The eldest son, that is, the one that
stayed at home, represented our new
idea of the unity of the action of the
universe.

The younger son, that is, the one that
went abroad, represented the conception
that we had got of it that the kingdom of
heaven was at hand.

The citizen that the younger son
joined himself to represented our old
idea of the unity of the action of the
universe.

The killing of the calf, and the music
and dancing, represented the joy he felt
at the separation of the conception that
we had got of our new idea of the unity
of the action of the universe from our
old one, and its associating itself in his
mind with the one from which it had
arisen.

Reporter. But why did he feel joy

76 AN INTERVIEW

at the separation of the conception that
we had got of our new idea of the unity
of the action of the universe from our
old one, and the association of it in his
mind with the idea from which it had
arisen ?

Author. Because the separation of
it from our old idea of the unity of the
action of the universe freed him from
the idea that "the kingdom of heaven"
was coming from without us, and its
association with our new one gave him
consciousness that it was coming from
within us, where it was coming from.

Reporter. But what evidence is
there that it gave him consciousness that
it was coming from within us, where it
was coming from ?

Author. The evidence of what he
said about it.

Reporter. What did he say about
it?

Author. Upon some of us shortly

AN INTERVIEW 77

afterwards asking him when the king-
dom of God would come, he said :

" The kingdom of God cometh not with
observation :

"Neither shall they say, Lo, here! or
lo, there! for behold, the kingdom of God
is within you."

Reporter. But what advantage was
it to him to have consciousness that the
kingdom of heaven was coming from
within us?

Author. It enabled him to direct
his thoughts to it; that is, it enabled
him to direct his thoughts to our new
idea of the unity of the action of the
universe, and it rapidly developed in his
mind, and he soon began to get con-
ceptions of what it was like.

Reporter. What conceptions did he
get of what it was like?

Author. He got these conceptions
of it:

" The kingdom of heaven is like unto

78 AN INTERVIEW

treasure hid in a field; the which when
a man hath found, he hideth, and for joy
thereof goeth and selleth all that he hath,
and buyeth that field."

Reporter. How do you interpret
this conception ?

Author. The treasure hid in a field
represented our new idea.

Reporter. What did the field repre-
sent ?

Author. The field represented his
mind.

"Again" he said, " the kingdom of
heaven is like unto a merchantman, seek'
ing goodly pearls:

"Who, when he had found one pearl of
great price, went and sold all that he had,
and bought it."

The pearl of great price represented
our new idea of the unity of the action of
the universe.

Again he said:

" The kingdom of heaven is like unto

AN INTERVIEW 79

leaven, which a woman took, and hid in
three measures of meal, till the whole was
leavened"

The leaven represented our new idea of
the unity of the action of the universe.

Again he said:

" The kingdom of heaven is like to a
grain of mustard-seed, which a man took,
and sowed in his field :

"Which indeed is the least of all seeds;
but when it is grown, it is the greatest
among herbs, and becometh a tree, so
that the birds of the air come and lodge in
the branches thereof."

The grain of mustard-seed represented
our new idea of the unity of the action of
the universe. The field represented his
mind.

But his attention was now called to
something else, for the getting of these
conceptions of what our new idea was
like so far developed it in his mind as to
bring about a great change in him — so

80 AN INTERVIEW

far developed it as to make him feel like
a new person — so far developed it as
to make him feel like a little child. And
he sought to explain it to his disciples.

Reporter. In what way did he seek
to explain it to his disciples ?

Author. He called a little child to
him, and setting it in the midst of them,
he said:

"Verily I say unto you, Except ye be
converted" (that is, changed, as he had
been) "and become as little children, ye
shall not enter into the kingdom of
heaven " (that is, enter into the state of
mind that he was in).

But it was not by his becoming as a
little child that he had come into "the
kingdom of heaven," but by his coming
into "the kingdom of heaven" that he
had become as a little child. And he
kept dwelling upon it. And finally
he expressed it in another way.

Reporter. In what other way ?

AN INTERVIEW 81

Author. In this other way:

"Verily, verily'' he said, "I say unto
thee, Except a man be born again, he can-
not see the kingdom of God.

" Nicodemus saith unto him, How can
a man be born when he is old ? Can he
enter the second time into his mother's
womb, and be born ?"

And he answered:

"That which is born of the -flesh, is
flesh; and that which is born of the
Spirit, is spirit.

"Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye
must be born again."

But while the consciousness that he
had thus got that he had come into "the
kingdom of heaven" by becoming as a
little child had deepened into the con-
sciousness that he had come into it by be-
ing born of the Spirit, it had not deepened
into consciousness of how he had been
born of the Spirit, and he added :

"The wind bloweth where it listeth,

6

82 AN INTERVIEW

and thou hearest the sound thereof, but
canst not tell whence it cometh, and
whither it goeth: so is every one that is
born of the Spirit."

But the matter now took another turn,
for the conceptions that he had got of
what our new idea was like began to
develop in his mind.

Reporter. What evidence is there
of that?

Author. The evidence of a concep-
tion that he got of it.

Reporter. What conception did he
get of it ?

Author. He got this conception of it :

"Behold, a sower went forth to sow;

"And when he sowed, some seeds fell by
the way side, and the fowls came and de-
voured them up:

"Some fell upon stony places, where
they had not much earth: and forthwith
they sprang up, because they had no
deepness of earth.

AN INTERVIEW 83

"And when the sun was up, they were
scorched; and because they had no root
they withered away.

"And some fell among thorns; and
the thorns sprang up, and choked them.

"But other jell into good ground, and
brought forth fruit, some an hundred-fold,
some sixty-fold, some thirty-fold."

Reporter. How do you interpret
this conception?

Author. The sower represented our
new idea of the unity of the action of
the universe.

The seeds represented the conceptions
that he had got of what it was like.

The good ground represented the
places in his mind where they took root
and developed.

The stony places, places where they
did not take root and develop, but when
our new idea arose in his mind, which
it was now beginning to do, withered
away.

84 AN INTERVIEW

Reporter. What did the thorns
represent ?

Author. They represented concep-
tions that arose from our old idea
of the unity of the action of the uni-
verse, for the development of our new
idea of the unity of the action of it
so stimulated our old one that concep-
tions began to arise from it, and scatter
themselves among the conceptions that
had arisen from our new one, and
choke them.

Reporter. What evidence is there
of that?

Author. The evidence of a concep-
tion that he got of it.

Reporter. What conception did he
get of it ?

Author. He got this conception of
it:

" The kingdom of heaven is likened
unto a man which sowed good seed in his
field :

AN INTERVIEW 85

"But while men slept, his enemy came
and sowed tares among the wheats and
went his way.

"But when the blade was sprung up,
and brought forth fruit, then appeared
the tares also.

"So the servants of the householder
came and said unto him, Sir, didst not
thou sow good seed in thy field ? from
whence then hath it tares ?

"He said unto them, An enemy hath
done this. The servants said unto him,
Wilt thou then that we go and gather them
up f

"But he said, Nay; lest while ye
gather up the tares, ye root up also the
wheat with them.

"Let both grow together until the har-
vest: and in the time of harvest I will
say to the reapers, Gather ye together
first the tares, and bind them in bundles
to burn them: but gather the wheat into
my barn."

86 AN INTERVIEW

Reporter. How do you interpret
this conception?

Author. As before, the sower rep-
resented our new idea.

The good seed represented the con-
ceptions that he had got of what it was
like.

The enemy represented our old idea.

The tares represented the conceptions
that arose from it.

Reporter. What did the house-
holder represent?

Author. The householder repre-
sented our leader himself.

Reporter. And what did the serv-
ants represent?

Author. They represented his
thoughts. That is, he thought, good
conceptions have been sown in my
mind; where did these bad ones come
from ?

And then he thought, "An enemy
hath done this."

AN INTERVIEW 87

And then the thought arose, Had these
bad conceptions better be destroyed ?

But he thought that if they were
destroyed the good ones would be de-
stroyed with them. That it would be
better to let them grow together until
the harvest — until the good ones rip-
ened — and then separate them, and
destroy the bad ones. And gather the
good ones in his mind as wheat in a
barn.

But while such was the resolution
taken by our leader, he soon found that
it was necessary to go further. For not
only had our old idea of the unity of the
action of the universe sown conceptions
among those that had been sown by our
new one, but it continued to do so ; and
so choked them that in the next concep-
tion that he got of what was taking place
in his mind he was at sea, and the good
and bad seed had turned into good and
bad fish that would have to be separated.

88 AN INTERVIEW

Reporter. But what evidence is
there of that?

Author. The evidence of a concep-
tion that he got of it.

Reporter. What conception did he
get of it ?

Author. He got this conception of
it:

" The kingdom of heaven is like unto
a net that was cast into the sea, and
gathered of every kind:

"Which, when it was full, they drew
to shore, and sat down, and gathered
the good into vessels, but cast the bad
away."

And while it was possible for him to
think of awaiting the ripening of good
and bad seed before separating them,
to think of waiting for any length of
time before separating good and bad
fish after they were caught, was out of
the question; and especially while he
retained our old idea of the unity of the

AN INTERVIEW 89

action of the universe, for while he did
so the supply was unlimited.

And he resolved to get our old idea
of the unity of the action of the universe
out of the way.

Reporter. What evidence is there
of that ?

Author. The evidence of what he
said about it.

Reporter. What did he say about it ?

Author. "If thy right eye offend
thee" he said, "pluck it out, and cast it
from thee : for it is profitable for thee that
one of thy members should perish, and not
that thy whole body should be cast into
hell.

"And if thy right hand offend thee, cut
it off, and cast it from thee: for it is
profitable for thee that one of thy mem-
bers should perish, and not that thy whole
body should be cast into hell."

For such his condition now seemed to
him.

90 AN INTERVIEW

Reporter. But did he get our old
idea out of the way?

Author. Yes; and having done so,
our new one rapidly developed, and he
got another conception of it.

Reporter. What other conception
did he get of it ?

Author. He got this other concep-
tion of it :

"God is a Spirit."

And this conception associating itself
in his mind with the consciousness that
he had got that he had come into "the
kingdom of heaven" by being born of
the Spirit, gave him consciousness that
he had come into it by being born of
God, by being born of the power that
carries on the action of the universe.

But it did not give him consciousness
of how he had been born of God — of
how he had been born of the power that
carries on the action of the universe —
and he returned to his idea to develop it

AN INTERVIEW 91

further, and soon got another conception
of it.

Reporter. What other conception
did he get of it?

Author. He got this other concep-
tion of it:

"7 and my Father are one."

And as he used the word father to
represent the power that carries on the
action of the universe, the conception
that he got was that he and the power
that carries on the action of the uni-
verse were one. And in order to com-
plete the development of his idea he had
to get a conception of how he and the
power that carries on the action of the
universe were one.

And before he could get a conception
of how he and the power that carries
on the action of the universe were one,
he had to get a conception of the differ-
ence between the power that carries on

92 AN INTERVIEW

the action of the universe and the idea
through which it was manifesting itself
in him.

And this was a task of extreme diffi-
culty, for he did not know that the
power that carries on the action of the
universe was manifesting itself in him
through an idea.

Reporter. But he had conscious-
ness of it ?

Author. Yes, but it presented itself
to him as treasure hid in a field, a
pearl of great price, as leaven hid in
meal, as seed sown in a field; and he
could not rightly say that it manifested
itself in him through any of these things.
And he was greatly troubled.

Reporter. What evidence is there
of that?

Author. The evidence of what he
said about it.

Reporter. What did he say about
it?

AN INTERVIEW 93

Author. "Now," he said, "is my
soul troubled; and what shall I say ?

"Father, save me from this hour; but
for this cause came I unto this hour"

Reporter. And what did he do
about it?

Author. He went to reflecting upon
his experience in developing our new
idea.

Reporter. And what was the result
of his doing so ?

Author. The result of his doing so
was that he resolved to go back and try
to get a further conception of it through
the conception that we had got of
it that the kingdom of heaven was
at hand.

Reporter. What evidence is there
of that ?

Author. The evidence of a concep-
tion that he got of it.

Reporter. What conception did he
get of it ?

94 AN INTERVIEW

Author. He got this conception of
it:

" The kingdom of heaven is as a man
traveling into a jar country, who called
his own servants, and delivered unto
them his goods.

"And unto one he gave five talents, to
anotlier two, and to another one; to every
man according to his several ability;
and straightway took his journey.

" Then he that had received the five
talents, went and traded with the same,
and made them other five talents.

"And likewise he that had received
two, he also gained other two.

"But he that had received one, went
and digged in the ,earth, and hid his
lord's money.

" After a long time the lord of
those servants cometh, and reckoneth
with them.

"And so he that had received five tal-
ents, came and brought other five talents,

AN INTERVIEW 95

saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me
five talents: behold, I have gained be-
sides them five talents more.

"His lord said unto him, Well done,
thou good and faithful servant ; thou
hast been faithful over a few things, I
will make thee ruler over many things:
enter thou into the joy of thy lord.

"He also that had received two talents
came, and said, Lord, thou deliveredst
unto me two talents: behold, I have
gained two other talents besides them.

"His lord said unto him, Well done,
good and faithful servant; thou hast
been faithful over a few things, I will
make thee ruler over many things: enter
thou into the joy of thy lord.

" Then he which had received the one
talent came, and said, Lord, I knew thee
that thou art an hard man, reaping where
thou hast not sown, and gathering where
thou hast not strewed :

"And I was afraid, and went and hid

96 AN INTERVIEW

thy talent in the earth : lo, there thou hast
that is thine.

"His lord answered and said unto him,
Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou
knewest that I reap where I sowed not,
and gather wJiere I have not strewed:

" Thou oughtest therefore to have put
my money to the exchangers, and then
at my coming I should have received
mine own with usury."

Reporter. How do you interpret
this conception ?

Author. The man traveling in a far
country represented our leader himself.

The servant that was given the five
talents represented the conception that
we had got that the kingdom of heaven
was at hand.

The five talents that he gained by it
represented the conceptions that he had
got of what the kingdom of heaven was
like.

The servant that was given the two

AN INTERVIEW 97

talents represented the conception that
he had got that he had come into the
kingdom of heaven by becoming as a
little child.

The talents that he gained by it repre-
sented the conceptions that he had got
that he had come into the kingdom of
heaven by being born again, and that he
had come into it by being born of the
Spirit — by being born of the power that
carries on the action of the universe.

The servant that was given the one
talent represented the conception that
he had got that he and his Father were
one — that he and the power that carries
on the action of the universe were one.

Reporter. What did the taking of
the one talent from the servant to whom
it had been given, and giving it to the
servant to whom had been given the
five talents, represent ?

Author. It represents his resolution
to go back and try to get a further
7

98 AN INTERVIEW

conception of our new idea through the
conception that we had got that the
kingdom of heaven was at hand.

Reporter. And did he go back and
try to get a further conception of our
new idea through the conception that
we had got that the kingdom of heaven
was at hand ?

Author. Yes; and finding himself
unable to do so, he went still further
back, and tried to get a further concep-
tion of it through a conception that we
had got of an experience that we had
had in the wilderness, and tried to get a
further conception of it through that.

Reporter. How did he try to get a
further conception of it through that?

Author. By representing it as the
bread of life. And as he had not yet got
a conception of the difference between
his idea and himself, he represented
himself as the bread of life, and told us
that unless we ate his flesh and drank

A1ST INTERVIEW 99

his blood there was no life in us, and,
thinking he was losing his mind, many
of us left him.

And fearing himself that he would fail,
he turned his thoughts to those of us
that had forsaken everything to follow
him.

Reporter. What evidence is there
of that ?

Author. The evidence of what he
said about it.

Reporter. What did he say about
it?

Author. " There was a certain rich
man,'" he said, "which had a steward;
and the same was accused unto him that
he had wasted his goods.

"And he called him, and said unto
him, How is it that I hear this of thee ?
give an account of thy stewardship; for
thou mayest be no longer steward.

" Then the steward said within himself,
What shall I do ? for my lord taketh

100 AN INTERVIEW

away from me the stewardship : I cannot
dig ; to beg I am ashamed.

"I am resolved what to do, that, when
I am put out of the stewardship, they
may receive me into their houses.

"So he called every one of his lord's
debtors unto him, and said unto the
first, How much owest thou unto my
lord ?

"And he said, An hundred measures
of oil. And he said unto him, Take thy
bill, and sit down quickly, and write
fifty.

" Then said he to another, And how
much owest thou ? And he said, An hun-
dred measures of wheat. And he said
unto him, Take thy bill, and write four-
score.

"And the lord commended the unjust
steward, because he had done wisely : for
the children of this world are in their
generation wiser than the children of
light.

AN INTERVIEW 101

"And I say unto you, make to your-
selves friends of the mammon of un-
righteousness: that, when ye fail, they
may receive you into their houses." 1

But he was not long in this condition
of mind, for having been taught our old
idea of the unity of the action of the
universe when a child, it developed
in the upper brain, and as we can-
not develop two opposite ideas in the
upper brain at the same time, our new
idea of the unity of the action of it de-
veloped in the back one, and as he had
got our old idea out of the way, our new
one arose and united itself with the
upper one.

Reporter. What evidence is there
of that?

Author. The evidence of a concep-
tion that he got of it.

1 He is reported to us as saying, into "everlast-
ing habitations," which is clearly a mistake.

102 AN INTERVIEW

Reporter. What conception did he
get of it ?

Author. He got this conception of it :

" Then shall the kingdom of heaven
be likened unto ten virgins, which took
their lamps, and went forth to meet the
bridegroom.

"And five of them were wise, and five
were foolish.

" They that were foolish took their
lamps, and took no oil with them :

"But the wise took oil in their vessels
with their lamps.

"While the bridegroom tarried, they
all slumbered and slept.

"And at midnight there was a cry made,
Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out
to meet him.

" Then all those virgins arose, and
trimmed their lamps.

"And the foolish said unto the wise,
Give us of your oil; for our lamps are
gone out.

AN INTERVIEW 103

"But the wise answered, saying, Not
so; lest there be not enough for us and
you: but go ye rather to them that sell,
and buy for yourselves.

"And while they went to buy, the bride-
groom came; and they that were ready
went in with him to the marriage; and
the door was shut.

"Afterward came also the other vir-
gins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.

"But he answered and said, Verily I
say unto you, I know you not."

Reporter. How do you interpret
this conception?

Author. The bridegroom repre-
sented our new idea of the unity of the
action of the universe.

The marriage represented the uniting
of it with the upper brain.

The five wise virgins represented the
conceptions that he had got that he had
come into the kingdom of heaven by
becoming as a little child, that he had

104 AN INTERVIEW

come into the kingdom of heaven by
being born again, that he had come into
it by being born of the Spirit, that God
is a Spirit, and that he and his Father
were one.

The five foolish virgins represented
the conceptions that he had got of what
the kingdom of heaven was like.

Reporter. Why were the concep-
tions that he got of what the kingdom of
heaven was like represented as foolish
virgins ?

Author. Because by getting the more
direct conceptions of our new idea
through them, he had exhausted the
value of them to him.

But they still hung around with their
oilless lamps, and when our new idea
arose in the upper brain he shut the
door in their faces.

And now a very unusual thing hap-
pened, for, having united itself with the
upper brain, our new idea associated

AN INTERVIEW 105

itself in his mind with a conception that
we had got of the coming of the kingdom
of heaven from without us, and he sought
to express it through that.

Reporter. What evidence is there
of that ?

Author. The evidence of what he
said about it.

Reporter. What did he say about
it?

Author : "Immediately after the tribu-
lation of those days" he said, among other
things, "shall the sun be darkened, and the
moon shall not give her light, and the stars
shall fall from heaven, and the powers of
the heavens shall be shaken: and then
shall appear the sign of the Son of man
in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of
the earth mourn, and they shall see the
Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven
with power and great glory.

"And he shall send his angels with a
great sound of a trumpet, and they shall

106 AN INTERVIEW

gather together his elect from the four

winds, from one end of heaven to the
other.

"When the Son of man shall come in
his glory, and all the holy angels with
him, then shall he sit upon the throne of
his glory;

"And before him shall be gathered all
nations: and he shall separate them one
from another, as a shepherd divideth his
sheep from the goats.

"And he shall set the sheep on his right
hand, but the goats on the left.

"Verily I say unto you, This genera-
tion shall not pass, till all these things be
fulfilled:'

But he soon got a conception that this
would not do.

Reporter. What conception did he
get of it ?

AN INTERVIEW 107

Author. He got this conception of
it:

"The kingdom of heaven is like unto
a certain king, which made a marriage
for his son.

"And sent forth his servants to call
them that were bidden to the wedding:
and they would not come

"Again, he sent forth other servants,
saying, Tell them which are bidden, Be-
hold, I have prepared my dinner: my
oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all
things are ready ; come unto the marriage."

And still they would not come.

" Then saith he to his servants, The
wedding is ready, but they which were
bidden were not worthy.

"Go ye therefore into the highways,
and as many as ye shall find, bid to the
marriage.

"So those servants went out into the
highways, and gathered together all as
many as they found, both bad and good;

108 AN INTERVIEW

and the wedding was furnished with
guests,

"And when the king came in to see
the guests, he saw there a man which had
not on the wedding garment.

"And he saith unto him, Friend, how
earnest thou in hither, not having a
wedding garment ? And he was speech-
less: 9

Reporter. How do you interpret
this conception ?

Author. The king represented our
leader.

The son represented our new idea.

The marriage represented the union
of it with the upper brain, which he was
still thinking of.

Those that were bidden to the mar-
riage and would not come were further
conceptions that he was striving to get
of our new idea.

The good and bad guests represented
good and bad conceptions that had come

AN INTERVIEW 109

to him in developing our new idea, and
among the bad ones was the conception
of the coming of the kingdom of heaven
out of the clouds, which he found, when
he came to look at it, had not on the
wedding garment, and he and his ser-
vants cast it out — he and his thoughts
cast it out.

But it appears that afterwards an
equally objectionable guest came in,
for at the end he took bread and broke
it, and told us that it was his body, and
wine, and told us that it was his blood.

But he was alone with his idea upon
the cross.

"Father," he said, "forgive them for
they know not what they do."

Nor did we.

Ill

r> EPORTER. Then our leader did
not complete the development of
our new idea of the unity of the action of
the universe in his mind ?

Author. No, he did not complete
the development of it in his mind.

Reporter. And why did he not do
so?

Author. There were several rea-
sons why he did not do so.

In the first place, to have completed
the development of it, he would have
had to become fully conscious that he
was developing an idea, so that he could
distinguish it from the power that was
manifesting itself through it in him;
and to have become fully conscious that
he was developing an idea, he would

AN INTERVIEW 111

have had to know what ideas were, a
thing that at that time we were without
knowledge of, and had no language for. 1

Moreover, before our new idea could
be completed in the minds of any of us,
it had to be given expression in institu-
tions to govern our political action, and
expression of it at that time in institu-
tions to govern our political action was
out of the question.

And besides, if it had been possible
for him to have completed the develop-
ment of it, he did not live long enough
to do so; for he lived but a few months
at most after it arose in the upper brain,
and to have completed the development
of it, even so far as to make a simple
statement of it, would have required at
least two or three years after that.

1 Although the New Testament comes to us through
the Greek, the word " idea " is nowhere to be found in
it, nor is it to be found in the old one, which it is a
development of.

112 AN INTERVIEW

But even if he had completed the de-
velopment of it, and made a statement
of it, we would not have understood
what he meant by it, for it was not suffi-
ciently developed in our minds for us to
do so, and the conceptions that he got
of it would have been lost.

Reporter. Why would they have
been lost?

Author. Because we would have lost
our interest in him, and our memory of
them.

Reporter. But why did we not lose
our interest in him, and our memory
of them, as it was ?

Author. Because of the conception
that he repeated to us of the coming of
the kingdom of heaven from without
us, and our belief in it.

Reporter. But it did not come true ?

Author. No, but it kept us inter-
ested in him until the conceptions that
he had got of the coming of it from

AN INTERVIEW 113

within us so far developed in our minds
as to give us the feeling that he had
got us out of the difficulty that we were
in; and this feeling associating itself
with the conception that we had got into
our difficulty by partaking of the fruit
of the tree of knowledge of good and
evil, we got the idea that he had recon-
ciled the Creator to us, as we had
thought of some one doing.

And this idea associating itself in our
minds with the idea that we had of some
one doing so by ransoming us — by re-
deeming us — we got the idea that that
was the way he had done so, which, as-
sociating itself with our idea of sacrifices,
gave us the idea that he had redeemed
us with his blood, and that he was the
new sacrifice we had been looking for.

But this idea was soon modified, for
as the conceptions that our leader had
got of our new idea developed in our
minds they gave us a fuller conscious-

8

114 AN INTERVIEW

ness of the trouble that we were in, and
we began to feel that he had not got
us out of it, but that he could get us out
of it. That he had not reconciled the
Creator to us, but that he could recon-
cile the Creator to us.

And we began to petition him to do so.

And as petitioning is a thing that some
of us can do better than others, we soon
began to get those that were good at it
to petition for us.

And in the meantime the conceptions
that our leader had got of our new idea
continued to develop in our minds, un-
til finally a new consciousness of how
we should act towards one another be-
gan to arise from them, 1 and upon our
violating it, as we frequently did, we

1 As a new consciousness of how we should act
toward one another arose from them in the mind of
our leader, which he gave expression to in the sermon
on the mount, which he prefaced by saying, Ye have
heard it said by them of old time, Thou shalt not do
so and so, but I say unto you, etc.

AN INTERVIEW 115

felt that we had done wrong in doing so,
and began to ask those that petitioned
for us to get us forgiven for this also.

And finally some of them began to
claim that they could not only get us
forgiven for the wrongs that we had done,
but for the wrongs that we wanted to do,
which was too much for us, and we
broke away from them, and went back
to petitioning for ourselves.

And the conceptions that our leader
had got of our new idea continuing to
develop in our minds, the feeling that,
we had done wrong when we acted con-
trary to them finally associated itself
with them, and gave us the idea that we
could be saved — that we could get out
of the difficulty that we were in — by
believing in them, or as it presented it-
self to us, by believing in him.

And having got this idea we began
studying them anew, and so far de-
veloped the idea from which they had

116 AN INTERVIEW

arisen in our minds as to bring about the
same change in us that the development
of it had brought about in him — so far
developed it in our minds as to make us
feel like we had been born again.

And the consciousness of the change
that the development of our new idea
brought about in us, associating itself
in our minds with the conception that
our leader had got of the change that the
development of it had brought about in
him, we got the conception that it was
brought about in us by our being born of
God through our belief in the concep-
tions that he had got of our new idea, or
as it presented itself to us, through our
belief in him — which was the truth
about the matter.

And following the course that he had
taken, we repeated these conceptions to
others, and the development of them in
their minds brought about the same
change in them that it had brought about

AN INTERVIEW 117

in us, and they repeated them to others
with like results.

And thus it came about that the story
of the cross was told everywhere —
upon the wall of cotter, priest, and king
the cunning hand of joy told the pic-
tured story of the world's redemption.

Reporter. And what course did the
development of our new idea of the unity
of the action of the universe next take
in our minds ?

Author. In order to understand that
it will be necessary to go back in our
history.

Now the first thing that we became
conscious of after we began to develop
was that we were hungry, and our first
action was to get something to eat. And
if we could have always got something
to eat by simply reaching out for it, we
would have gone no further.

But we soon found that we could not
always get something to eat by simply

118 AN INTERVIEW

reaching out for it — that we often had
to hunt for it. And that when we found
it, it often got away from us, or ate us
up. And to keep it from doing either,
we united our action in hunting it.

And this made it necessary for us to
go further, and create a government of
our action in doing so ; for while we may
act separately without a government of
our action, we cannot act together with-
out one. And this we did by agreeing to,
or submitting to, the government of it
by the best hunter among us, whom we
called our chief.

But we soon found that having created
a government of our action in hunting
our food, we had to create a government
of our action in distributing it, to pre-
vent some of us from getting more of
it than we should. Accordingly we
extended the government that we had
created of our action in hunting it, over
our action in distributing it, by agreeing

AN INTERVIEW 119

to, or submitting to, the government of
it by our chief also.

But we soon had to go further, for
as game became scarce we encroached
upon the hunting-grounds of neighbor-
ing tribes, and they encroached upon
ours, and this brought on wars between
us, and we had to unite our action in
fighting as well as in hunting, and we
extended the government that we had
created over our action in hunting, over
our action in fighting, by agreeing to,
or submitting to, the government of it
by our chief.

Nor did we stop here ; for overcoming,
as we did, our neighboring tribes, we ex-
tended the government that we had cre-
ated over our action, over theirs, and
from a tribe of people we became a na-
tion of people, and our chief became
our king.

But this is not all of the story; for
while passing from a tribe of people to a

120 AN INTERVIEW

nation of people, the game of the tribes
that we conquered became exhausted,
as did our own, and abandoning the
chase as the means of supplying our
food we turned to the soil to do so.

And then the matter took another
turn; for as it was not necessary for us
to unite our action in procuring our food
from the soil, our chief divided the
lands among us, as he had divided the
proceeds of the chase among us, and we
procured our food separately, as we had
procured it before we united our action
in hunting it.

And had nothing else occurred we
would have abandoned the government
that we had created of our action as of
no further use to us.

But something else occurred.

For we soon found that what had
taken place among us had taken place
among others, and that there were other
nations than our own; and that we had

AN INTERVIEW 121

to unite our action in fighting to hold the
lands that our chief had divided among
us, as he had had to unite our action in
fighting to acquire it. And we continued
the government that we had created to
govern our action in doing so.

And this led us a step further.

For as our holding the lands that he
had divided among us depended upon
our fighting, we agreed to, or submitted
to, his taking them away from us if we
refused to submit to his government of
our action in doing so.

Nor did the matter stop here.

For finding that some of us were not
able to render military service, or that
he did not need the military service of
some of us, we agreed to, or submitted
to, his requiring other services in its
stead, and to his taking our lands away
from us if we failed to render them, as
in the case of our failure to render the
military service that he required of us.

122 AN INTERVIEW

And finally, as money came into use,
and we became more peaceful, he ac-
cepted it in lieu of such services, and to
some extent in lieu of military services,
and he held our lands upon the same
condition that we hold them now — that
we pay our taxes.

But while we held our lands upon the
same condition that we hold them now,
we did not hold them under the same
condition that we hold them now; for
having created our government from
necessity, and not from knowledge, we
did not know where the power of it
came from, and our consciousness of it
associated itself in our minds with our
old idea of the unity of the action of the
universe, and gave us the conception
that it came from the person it repre-
sented carried the action of it on, who
conferred it upon our king.

And as our idea was that the person
that it represented carried the action of

AN INTERVIEW 123

the universe on could do no wrong, we
got the idea that our king could do no
wrong, and let him do as he pleased
with it.

But in the meantime the conceptions
that our leader had got of our new idea
of the unity of the action of the universe
had been repeated to us, and finally they
so far developed in our minds that our
consciousness of the power of the gov-
ernment that we had created separated
itself from our old idea of the unity of
the action of it, and associated itself with
our new one, and gave us the conception
that it came from us, or, as we expressed
it, that governments derive their just
powers from the consent of the governed.
And we threw off the old government
that we had created from necessity and
created a new one from knowledge —
created a new one from our new idea
of the unity of the action of the
universe.

124 AN INTERVIEW

But at the time we created our new
government, our new idea was not suffi-
ciently developed for us to see that the
conception that we thus got of it applied
to governments of our industrial action
as well as to governments of our political
action, and we included the institution of
slavery in it.

But our new idea continued to de-
velop, and we soon found ourselves in
the deepest distress. We could not go
forward, for a contrary institution was
in our way. We could not go backward,
for our new idea had too deep a hold
upon us.

And to make the matter worse, our
new idea was not sufficiently developed
for us to know what the trouble was.
And in our distress we even thought of
destroying the government that we had
created — some of us going so far as to
declare that it was a league with death
and a covenant with hell.

AN INTERVIEW 125

But finally our new idea so far de-
veloped in the mind of one of us that he
got a conception of the trouble that we
were in.

Reporter. What conception did he
get of it ?

Author. He got this conception of
it:

That our house was divided against
itself, and that so divided it could not
stand.

And following his leadership, we got
the institution of slavery out of our
way.

Reporter. You speak of Abraham
Lincoln ?

Author. Yes, I speak of Abraham
Lincoln.

Reporter. Why did our new idea
develop so perfectly in the mind of Abra-
ham Lincoln?

Author. There were several reasons
for it.

126 AN INTERVIEW

In the first place, he had a mind that
was suited for it.

And in the next place, he had thor-
oughly rid himself of our old one, if in-
deed he was ever possessed of it, which
is extremely doubtful, for he appears to
have been possessed of only our new one
from the beginning. 1

But he had not only thoroughly rid
himself of our old idea, if he was ever
possessed of it, but he had thoroughly
rid himself of the provisional concep-
tions that we had got of the trouble that
we had got into in developing our new

1 "No man," his law partner, Mr. Herndon, tells
us, "had a stronger or firmer faith in Providence —
God — than Mr. Lincoln, but the continued use by
him late in life of the word God must not be inter-
preted to mean that he believed in a personal God.
In 1854 he asked me to erase the word God from a
speech which I had written and read to him for criti-
cism because my language indicated a personal God,
whereas he insisted that no such personality existed."
Herndon and Weik's "Life of Lincoln," Vol. 2, pages
155-156.

AN INTERVIEW 127

idea, and of how we were to get out of
it, if he was ever possessed of them.

Thoroughly rid himself of the con-
ceptions that we had got of the anger
of the Creator toward us, and of how
he had been reconciled to us, or could
be reconciled to us, and of the super-
natural character of our leader, without
which it would have been impossible
for our new idea to have so perfectly
developed in his mind. 1

But to go on with my story.

Having thus got the institution of
slavery out of our way, our new idea
rapidly developed, and the conscious-
ness that it gave us associated itself in
our minds with our industrial action, as

1 Mr. Herndon tells us that he early prepared an
extended essay, called by many a book, in which he
made an argument against these things, and which
he intended to have published, or widely circulated,
but which one of his friends, fearing it would hurt him
politically, got hold of and burned up. Herndon and
Weik's "Life of Lincoln," Vol. 2, pages 149-150.

128 AN INTERVIEW

it had before associated itself with our
political action, and we began to give
expression to it in another way?

Reporter. In what other way?

Author. In machinery that we cre-
ated from it for the production and dis-
tribution of the means of living.

And in the next few years we created
more machinery than in all of the ages
before.

And this made it necessary for us to
again unite our industrial action as we
had united it in hunting. For while one
of us may carry on a farm or a black-
smith's shop, it requires a number of us
to run a railroad or a factory.

And as having united our industrial
action in procuring the means of living
by hunting, we had to create a govern-
ment of it; so having united our action
in procuring the means of living by
machinery, we had to create a govern-
ment of it.

AN INTERVIEW 129

Reporter. But did we create a gov-
ernment of it ?

Author. Yes.

Reporter. How did we create a
government of it ?

Author. By creating corporations
to govern it.

But as with the first government that
we created of our political action, having
created it from necessity and not from
knowledge, we did not know where the
power of it came from, and our con-
sciousness of it associated itself in our
minds with the directors of it, and we
allowed them to exercise it as they
pleased, as we allowed our king to exer-
cise the power of the first government
that we created of our political action as
he pleased.

But our new idea continued to develop,
and our consciousness of the power of
the government that we created of our
industrial action separated itself from

130 AN INTERVIEW

the directors of it, and associated itself
with the new government that we have
created from it of our political action,
and gave us consciousness that the power
of it came from us, and we began to pass
laws to direct the exercise of it, and take
steps to enforce them.

And finally our new idea so far de-
veloped that the consciousness that it
gave us of the power of the government
that we have created of our industrial
action associated itself in our minds
directly with it, and gave us conscious-
ness that the power of our industrial
action is not to be directed by the
new government that we have created
of our political action, but by a new
government that we are to create of
our industrial action, and this con-
sciousness took the form of The In-
ter-State Commerce Commission, and
The Department of Commerce and
Labor.

AN INTERVIEW 131

And this brings us to where we now
are.

And before going further it will be
necessary for me to speak of the develop-
ment of our new idea of the unity of the
action of the universe in my own mind.

Just when our new idea came into my
mind I do not know, but I do know that
I early had consciousness of it, for I
scarcely remember the time when I was
not seeking to give expression to it.

But while I was early possessed of our
new idea of the unity of the action of the
universe, I was also early taught our
old idea of the unity of the action of it.
And as I grew older, and our new idea
developed in my mind, I found myself
in the deepest distress. I could not go
forward, for a contrary idea lay in my
way. I could not go backward, for
our new idea had too deep a hold upon
me.

Something of the condition that I was

132 AN INTERVIEW

in may be gathered from what I after-
wards said about it.

"I stood beneath the stars," I said,
"a cringing slave! I said, *0 stars, is
there, is there, balm in Gilead ? *

" And they answered, 'Yes, my
brother, and you shall be as free as
we are.'"

But our new idea of the unity of the
action of the universe continued to de-
velop in my mind, and finally I resolved
to get the opposing idea out of my way.

Reporter. What evidence is there
of that ?

Author. The evidence of what I
said about it.

Reporter. What did you say about
it?

Author. I said this about it:

"All noble action is self directed; I
may not long be controlled by you or your
law, without being abased.

AN INTERVIEW 133

"No matter," I said, "how nobly you
may have wrought, no matter how per-
fect your act may be, I may not value it
overmuch.

"By this you express to me your ado-
ration, and only make me nobly dissatis-
fied. I too must now adore.

"I may not long abide by wonder, I
may not long stand by to admire. I dare
not trust your assurance of security.

" You tell me the earth is firm, and ripe
for my use; but I turn away, for I know
it is not my abiding-place.

"Have I not a home among the stars
as well as here ? Do I not walk on ether
as well as earth ?"

And I forced the opposing idea out of
my way.

And in speaking of it afterwards I
said:

" There are those who copy from a
note-book, and call that their experience,
who never had an experience in their lives.

134 AN INTERVIEW

" They are mere war-correspondents,
at a safe distance from shot and shell."

And having got our old idea of the
unity of the action of the universe out
of my way, our new idea of the unity of
the action of it rapidly developed in my
mind, and finally I got a conception
of it.

Reporter. What conception did you
get of it ?

Author. I got this conception of it:

"Finally all things are one thing, and
we speak of two things only for the sake
of language.

"Division is merely logical, and all
analysis bears our infirmities. "

And having got this conception I felt
like a new person — I felt like I had
been born again.

Reporter. What evidence is there
of that ?

Author. The evidence of the con-
sciousness that I got of it.

AN" INTERVIEW 135

Reporter. What consciousness did
you get of it ?

Author. I got this consciousness
of it:

"Let us go to the place of our start-
ing, and live in the home of our child-
hood.

"Here I am, and am joyous, and joy-
ously meet and greet you.

"I was before, but now I am more, and
existence is fast multiplying.

" Yet the hours are not filled, for there 's
much to unlearn of the teachings received
on our journeys.

"Our language now hinders our meet-
ing, and we know but little in common.

"Our journeys were not made together,
and to each other our language is foreign.

"Let us drop this foreign assertion,
and speak the language of children. "

And growing more reflective, I said :

"I remember when a child how I used
to gather and put in drawers and boxes

136 AN INTERVIEW

the nuts that grew back of my father's
farm.

"But what became of them aUer I have
lost all memory.

"I remember nut-cracking, but I do
not remember that they were not the gifts
of the fairies.

"We realize" I said, "what we ex-
perience, not what we accumulate.

"I remember only gathering and crack-
ing nuts."

And then I was in the old orchard.

"'Tis fine fun," I said, "gathering
apples in the autumn on the hillside, but
I prefer eating apples in the winter by
the fireside."

And then the vision vanished, and I
was with my own children.

"These children," I said, "remind me
that I have been making bad bargains.

"What they give me so cheaply is of
more worth than that for which I have
been changing my dearest treasures.

AN INTERVIEW 137

**7 find myself speaking their language,
and am half ashamed of the high words
that I have spoken of everything else.

" They please me so wholly that I deny
the years, and flatter myself that I am
not growing old."

And with still more reflection, I said :

"We wish for education, we need
domestication.

We are content with the entertainment
of a wayside inn, we need the enjoyment
of a fireside at home.

Happiness, not greatness, is the end of
life."

But the conception that I thus got of
our new idea was an imperfect one, and
it did not satisfy me, and failing in my
attempts to get a more perfect one, I was
on the point of giving up in despair.

Reporter. What evidence is there
of that?

Author. The evidence of the con-
sciousness that I got of it.

138 AN INTERVIEW

Reporter. What consciousness did
you get of it ?

Author. I got this consciousness of it :

"All riddles are of our own making,
and we have two ways of avoiding
difficulties.

"We may ask no questions, or we may
answer all questions.

"What we leave unquestioned we are
satisfied with. We inquire, as we live, at
our 'peril.

"What we leave not unanswered we
may not blame. We have no grievance
until we face a difficulty."

But I soon got consciousness that this
would not do.

Reporter. What consciousness did
you get of it ?

Author. I got this consciousness of
it:

" Your inheritance is fair to-day, and
this is the promise of all things, but the
accomplishment of nothing.

AN INTERVIEW 139

" All yet lies ahead, and your birthright
is the stake. No mess of pottage will pay
jor that.

" You now fight the battle of to-day ,
and of all days. And your victory now
shall be your inheritance evermore.

" What you now win by your valor you
shall in no wise lose but by your neglect.

"Be royal to this hour by your effort,
and you shall be royal evermore by your
consent.

" The solution of this hour shall be the
solvent of all hours.

"Life will cease to have a problem, and
we will become the keepers of an estate."

And finally I got a conception of
how our new idea was developing in my
mind.

Reporter. What conception did you
get of it ?

Author. I got this conception of it :

"We prepare by taper candles, and at
the back door, but the wedding-feast shall

140 AN INTERVIEW

take place under electric lights, and in the
best room."

Reporter. How do you interpret
this conception ?

Author. The best room represented
the upper brain. The back door repre-
sented the back one. The taper candles,
the light of it.

The wedding-feast represented the
union of our new idea with the upper
brain, which the development of it in
the back one was preparing for. The
electric lights represented the light of it.

For as with our leader, our old idea
having formed in the upper brain, our
new one developed in the back one.

And having got this conception of how
our new idea was developing in my
mind I directed my thoughts to it, and
finally so far developed it that I got con-
sciousness of the scope of it.

Reporter. What consciousness did
you get of the scope of it ?

AN INTERVIEW 141

Author. I got this consciousness of it :

"We reject the past," I said, "as
a poor representation of what we are
worth, and appeal to the future for our
justification.

"What has been is the source of our
title, what is to be is the possession of our
estate.

"What has been is the old creation,
what is to be is a new creation.

"We conspire with what has been, to
render what will be.

"Creation is at its old work of creat-
ing, and we shall now rejoice in a new
heaven and a new earth."

In a new condition of mind and a new
condition of affairs.

And finally our new idea arose in the
upper brain.

Reporter. What evidence is there
of that ?

Author. The evidence of the con-
sciousness that I got of it.

142 AN INTERVIEW

Reporter. What consciousness did
you get of it ?

Author. I got this consciousness of
it:

"We become other than we were.

"A hand is reached out to us, and we
have added to ourselves what it is.

"We revalue ourselves, and refuse to
be taken at our old worth.

"Our royal visitor makes us ashamed
of our occupations, and we hasten our
trifles into the closet.**

And by the light of it I said :

"I refuse your estimates, and reject
your schedule as a poor representation
of what I am worth.

" Your inventory is only of appurte-
nances, and my inheritance is a noble
domain.

" You have listed only my conditional
estate, and omitted from your schedule my
titles in fee.

"I scorn your inventory of my wealth,

AN INTERVIEW 143

and shall use your listed trifles for my
servants."

And growing more reflective, I said:

"We are timid, and remain where we
were yesterday, for fear we shall lose
ourselves to-day.

"We are not far-sighted, and are
fooled out of promises at the death-bed
of the hours.

"We are pledging our allegiance to the
dying sovereign while the winners of
life's prizes are at the feet of the incoming
king.

"We have settled ourselves without
looking about, and have satisfied our-
selves with an ever decreasing value.

"We shall arise from our beds to-mor-
row believing that we have found it all
out, and should a seer tell us other we
shall refer him to our book of chronicles.

" We so love the past that we spend our
time with requiems to the dead."

And with still more reflection, I said:

144 AN INTERVIEW

"What a delusion is that of the nos-
trum-monger.

"His is the splendid dream that His
no matter what sins we may commit if
we 9 ll only come to him for pardon.

"He sees that there 's something very
like that in creation, and is haunted with
the idea that he has it bottled in vials, and
stored away in his traveling -bags.

" 9 T is like the delusion of the insane
that they control the clouds and the
storm. 9 '

And continuing, I said:

"I cannot honor the man who, taking
me by the coat-sleeve, leads me into a back
alley, and whispers into my ear, 'I want
to tell you the truth 9

"The truth," I said, "is the fact de-
prived of its succulence, to be used like
dried fruit — when fresh fruit is out of
season. 99

But while our new idea arose in the
upper brain, being too sensitive to re-

AN INTERVIEW 145

ceive it, it sank down again, and left me
most miserable.

Reporter. What evidence is there
of that?

Author. The evidence of conscious-
ness that I got of it.

Reporter. What consciousness did
you get of it ?

Author. I got this consciousness of
it:

"I am disappointed of time and space.

"I had an appointment to meet you
here to-night, and here we are, and yet
we are not together.

"I came these weary miles and insist
on profit.

"I have not seen a living soul since
yesterday, and am fast forgetting who I
am.

"My request is simple: recognize me
that I may know myself until to-morrow.

"Do this and you may have my lands
and goods, for you have made me nobly
10

146 AN INTERVIEW

mad, and I shall be satisfied with nothing
less than knowing who you are.

"And this I may not do but by my
highest deed: I must love you.

" We recognize each other," I said, "and
are doubled. I am richer by what you
are, and you are richer by what I
am."

And growing more reflective, I said :

' T is our affair to love others, H is their
affair to love us.

Love waits on service, it goes with
tokens.

If you would love me do something
for me.

Two never loved without something
passed between them.

But my attention was now called to
something else, for a story of the ex-
perience that I had passed through
began to form in my mind, and while
thinking about it, our new idea again
arose in the upper brain.

AN INTERVIEW 147

Reporter. What evidence is there
of that ?

Author. The evidence of the con-
sciousness that I got of it.

Reporter. What consciousness did
you get of it ?

Author. I got this consciousness of
it:

" The hours are sovereign, and we are
contentious citizens.

" They take us unawares, and we
are not royal enough to so receive our
guests.

"We stammer and excuse ourselves,
and 'put an end to expectation.

"We cannot readily change our atti-
tude, and know but little of value.

"We go to prove our oxen, and forego
the wedding-feast of the king."

But while the upper brain was yet too
sensitive to receive it, and it sank down
again, it did not leave me in despair as
it formerly had done.

148 AN INTERVIEW

Reporter. What evidence is there of
that ?

Author. The evidence of what I
said about it.

Reporter. What did you say about
it?

Author. I said this about it :

" 'T is always night when the sun is
down, however much of moonshine.

" 'T is always day when the sun is wp,
liowever little of sunshine"

And I returned to the story that was
forming in my mind and tried to write
it out, but it was not yet sufficiently de-
veloped for me to do so, and I was again
on the point of giving up in despair.

Reporter. What evidence is there
of that?

Author. The evidence of what I
said about it.

Reporter. What did you say about
it?

"My written pages" I said, "no

AN INTERVIEW 149

longer meet my expectations, and I shall
have no assurance unless I meet your
approval.

"But if you are good-natured I shall
have no difficulty.

"If I say as you thought, you will be
pleased that I am as you are.

"If I say other than you thought, you
will be pleased that I am other than you
are.

"By the one I assure you that you are
as you should be, by the other that I am
as you could be.

" The one is the enjoyment of a passing
relation, the other is the assurance of a
lasting obligation."

But I soon got consciousness that this
would not do.

Reporter. What consciousness did
you get of it

Author. I got this consciousness of
it:

"As the one thing needful this trial of

150 AN INTERVIEW

yourself is made, and you shall not shrink,
nor shall you charge your failure to
Providence.

" You say you fought well and won not
yesterday.

"Were you fairly tested yesterday ?

"Were you weighed in any true balance
then ?

"I cannot believe it.

"If you failed and could not have done
other, your commission was not to do
that but quite other.

" The foolishness of the outcome was
not greater than the foolishness of the
trial.

" That you failed is but another as-
surance that you are not forsaken.

"Had your foolish game, and all
foolish games entered upon since the
world began brought victory, what kind
of a world would we now have, think you ?

"Bedlam were a better place than
that:'

AN INTERVIEW 151

And not knowing what else to do I
set myself to reading. I read every-
thing that I could get hold of and wrote
of everything that I read.

Of Shakespeare, I said:

"His men and women are not the men
and women of creation, but the men and
women of his genius."

Of Dickens :

"His is not a great creation of art, but
a great critique of nature.

"With Dickens it was a matter of ob-
servation, with Shakespeare, it was in
spite of observation."

Of Carlyle:

"Had he foregone the writing of
pamphlets for latter days, he might have
written an epic for all days."

Of Emerson :

"He was an excellent woodman, but
a poor builder."

But I soon got consciousness that this
would not do.

152 AN INTERVIEW

Reporter. What consciousness did
you get of it ?

Author. I got this consciousness of
it:

"We question our right, and buy up
all claimants to our possessions before we
examine our abstract.

"We bring every asserter into chancery,
and waste our means in litigation with
strangers to our title.

"We hasten our occasions, and if our
royal visitor fails to come at the appointed
hour we throw open our festal halls to
the highways and hedges."

And for awhile I drifted. At times it
seemed as though I was at sea, and the
waves were dashing over me.

"Think you" I said, "that when
Columbus left the little harbor of Pahs
that he knew what he was about to do ?

"He thought, what was of little im-

AN INTERVIEW 153

portance, that he was to find a new way
to the Indies.

"He was, what was of great impor-
tance, a man of genius, and 'trusted the
God that led him, and looked to the sea
that was silent'

"Patience J Patience! I would say.

"Some one has said genius is patience.
No," I said, "genius is patient."

And finally our new idea arose and
united itself with the upper brain, and
I got another conception of it.

Reporter. What other conception
did you get of it ?

Author. I got this other conception
of it:

"Understanding is a bridge of uncer-
tain safety, reason has wings, and laughs
at the floods.

"Understanding bears our infirmities,
reason is a child of the skies."

By which was revealed to me the
difference between our new idea and

154 AN INTERVIEW

the power that was manifesting itself
through it in me, the term "under-
standing" representing the one, and the
term " reason " the other.

But to complete the development of
our new idea in my mind it was not
enough for me to get a conception of
the difference between it and the power
that was manifesting itself through it
in me. It was necessary for me to
trace the power that was manifesting
itself through it in me to its origin, and
identify it with my intelligence ; and
the necessity of this I soon got con-
sciousness of.

Reporter. What consciousness did
you get of it?

Author. I got this consciousness
of it.

"Not analysis, but synthesis; not di-
vision, but unity.

"Herein lies the condition of all size,
and the measure of all expression.

AN INTERVIEW 155

"From this standing place we may
move the world."

But while I got consciousness that to
complete the development of our new
idea I had to trace the power that was
manifesting itself through it in me to its
origin, and identify it with my intelli-
gence, I soon found that I was not yet
able to do so, and went back to my
story, which was now sufficiently de-
veloped for me to write out.

And as I proceeded, the conceptions
that I had got of my experience in de-
veloping our new idea became a part
of it.

But while my story took form, my
idea lingered.

I got my story ready for the printer,
and still it refused to come to my lips.
And I held it day after day, hoping to
get the idea of it before putting it in
type.

But it came not.

156 AN INTERVIEW

And finally I wrote across a page of it
these words:

"We have felt andr believed, we shall
see and know," — and sent it off.

What I had written came back to
me in print, 1 and still I was kept in the
dark. Days lengthened into weeks, and
weeks into months. And finally it came,
like the opening of a bud, the falling of
a leaf:

"Our intelligence comes from without"

And in this was the conception that
we are in the power that carries on the
action of the universe, and it in us, or as
it presented itself to our leader, that we
are in our father and our father in us.

And that this power is one with our
intelligence, or as it presented itself to
our leader, that we and our father are
one.

And I knew what he meant when he
said:

1 " The Kecords of a Journey."

AN INTERVIEW 157

"Before Abraham was I am."

For I knew that we all were.

For I knew that it is the power that
carries on the action of the universe
heightened into our consciousness
through our ideas that carries on our
action, and that our action is one with
the action about us, as we are one with
the power that carries it on.

Reporter. Then what is the cause
of the imperfection of our action ?

Author. The imperfection of our
consciousness.

Reporter. And what is the cause of
the imperfection of our consciousness?

Author. The imperfection of our
ideas.

Reporter. Then if our idea of a
thing is perfect our consciousness of it
will be perfect ?

Author. Yes, and if our conscious-
ness of it is perfect, our action towards
it will be perfect.

158 AN INTERVIEW

And if our action is perfect, we will
be perfect, as the power that carries it
on is perfect.

And I knew what our leader meant
when he said:

"Be ye therefore perfect, even as your
father in heaven is perfect."

Furthermore, I knew what he meant
when he said:

" Take therefore no thought of the
morrow: for the morrow shall take
thought of the things of itself."

And I saw the vision of the morrow
that his idea gave him when he said:

" Take no thought for your life, what
ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor
yet for your body, what ye shall put on.

"Behold the fowls of the air: for they
sow not, neither gather into barns: yet
your heavenly Father feedeth them."

And behind the vision I heard the
whir of spindles and the beating of
looms.

AN INTERVIEW 159

"And why take thought of raiment ?
Consider the lilies of the -field, how they
grow; they toil not, neither do they spin.

"And yet I say unto you, that even
Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed
like one of these"

And I knew what he meant when he
said:

" Ye have heard that it hath been said.
An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a
tooth :

"But I say unto you, That ye resist
not evil; but whosoever shall smite thee
on thy right cheek, turn to him the other
also"

For I knew that he was conscious that
if we strike others we strike ourselves.

And that we should do unto others as
we should do unto ourselves.

And I knew too what he meant when
he said:

" Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first
that which is within the cup and platter,

160 AN INTERVIEW

that the outside of them may be clean
also.'' 9

But to go on with my story.

It will be seen from what has been
said that the story that I had written of
my experience in developing our new
idea was formed before I got a final
conception of it. And hence it was a
figurative one, and did not satisfy me.

Accordingly, after I got a final con-
ception of it I again took up the con-
ceptions that I had got in developing it,
and kept running them over in my mind
until they associated themselves in it
anew, and gave me the story of the de-
velopment of it much as I have told it
to you. 1

But this story did not satisfy me either,
for there were parts of my experience in
developing it that the conceptions that
I had got in developing it did not bring
out.

1 "The Enigma of Life," part first.

AN INTERVIEW 161

But finally our new idea associated
itself in my mind with the conceptions
that our leader had got in developing it,
and formed from them a story of his
experience in developing it, and this I
also wrote out ; ' but was not satisfied
with it either, for I found that there
were parts of his experience in develop-
ing it that the conceptions that he got
in developing it did not bring out.

Accordingly I took up the concep-
tions that he had got in developing it,
and the conceptions that I had got in
developing it, and found that the parts
of my experience in developing it, that
were not brought out by the conceptions
that I had got, were brought out by the
conceptions that he had got.

And that the parts of his experience
in developing it that were not brought
out by the conceptions that he had got,
were brought out by the conceptions

1 "The Enigma of Life," part second.
11

162 AN INTERVIEW

that I had got, and I drew from them
the story of his experience in developing
it and the story of my experience in
developing it, as I have told them to
you.

But from the beginning, as with our
leader, my interest in our new idea was
more social than scientific. I was more
interested in the consciousness that it
gave me of the changes that the de-
velopment of it is producing among us
than in the consciousness that it gave me
of our relation to the universe and to
one another.

And almost from the beginning it
associated itself in my mind with the
change that took place among us in 1776,
in which our fathers created our new
government of our political action, and
afterwards with the change that took
place among us in which we freed it of
the institution of slavery, and through
them finally gave me consciousness of

AN INTERVIEW 163

the new government that we are to create
of our industrial action.

Reporter. What consciousness did
it give you of the new government that
we are to create of our industrial action ?

But here company came in, and
there was so much confusion that the in-
terview closed.